tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post7848977208160259543..comments2024-02-24T18:44:39.324-08:00Comments on Trials & Tribulations: Dr. Conrad Murray's Death Drip: Explained - - Part 3Sprockethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03837416113512618694noreply@blogger.comBlogger117125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-73555762147140515392011-02-10T09:14:51.082-08:002011-02-10T09:14:51.082-08:00Anon @ 6:31 am:
No, that is not what she means. S...Anon @ 6:31 am:<br /><br />No, that is not what she means. She was explaining a hypothetical.<br /> <br /><br /><b>IF,</b> <i>by chance</i> a random doctor received a jury summons for this trial to show up on March 24th, most likely he would not be approved by either the prosecution or the defense.<br /><br />Selecting a jury is a drawn-out process where each side, through questioning, is trying to determine if that person is able to weigh the evidence and come to a conclusion favorable to their side. They want to make sure the individual doesn't have any pre-conceived beliefs about drug dependent individuals, doctor/ patient care and/or responsibilities.<br /><br />At a trial, both parties would want the jury to only consider the testimony from approved experts who testified, and not the personal opinions of a licensed doctor who is part of the jury.Sprockethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03837416113512618694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-63485427946896335502011-02-10T06:31:25.631-08:002011-02-10T06:31:25.631-08:00KZ,
Are you saying that a doctor is not permitted...KZ,<br /><br />Are you saying that a doctor is not permitted to give an opinion or assessment on the care provided by a peer?<br /><br />If not, can you further clarify?<br /><br />But if so, how is this case supposed to proceed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-12877802832473530822011-02-08T11:04:32.831-08:002011-02-08T11:04:32.831-08:00Anon at 5:33,
I'm not sure from your comment i...Anon at 5:33,<br />I'm not sure from your comment if you reside outdside of the U.S. In the U.S. a "jury of one's peers" does not refer to professional peers. I have long considered the ramifications of how our judicial system would function in the area of malpractice if juries were composed of professional peers of the accused. It might be better, it might be worse. It would certainly be different than what we have now. Currently, both plaintiff and defense utilize "expert witnesses" to interpret specialized information for jury members, who are NOT specialists in the field of the accused. Both sides want "blank slates" on the jury to present their information to, so that pre-conceived ideas or interpretation using specialized knowledge is limited to what has been presented.<br /><br />A jury of one's peers is a cross section of the general population and demographics in the area in which an accused person is tried. Almost never will a jury include medical or health care professionals in a case trying a health professional or doctor. (They are usually excluded during voir dire.)<br /><br />Conrad Murray's peers are citizens of L.A. who will be called for jury duty during his trial. They will decide if he is guilty or not guilty of the charges. However, CMs professional peers will demonstrate their approval or disapproval by defending his actions, or distancing themselves from his actions, or soundly criticizing his actions. Silence is also a method of demonstrating disapproval, and I sure don't hear a lot of physicians speaking out to defend CM's actions.<br /><br />Of note, I recently served as an expert on a civil case involving an advanced practice nurse where a doctor's expert testimony about the nurse's actions was ruled as inadmissible by the judge. The judge ruled that the doctor (who is prominent) could not give an opinion about the scope of practice and standards of care of the advanced practice nurse. He was permitted to render an opinion on the radiological evidence only.<br />As I was the nurse testifying as an expert, I interpreted that as a very big victory for my profession! (Albeit one that very few people will ever know about!)KZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-59031079403133365302011-02-08T05:33:41.237-08:002011-02-08T05:33:41.237-08:00Hope you feel better soon, Sprocket.
One thing ev...Hope you feel better soon, Sprocket.<br /><br />One thing everyone should keep in mind: The "doctor" will be judged by a jury of his "peers." It certainly will be interesting to see how many and who among his peers would do what he did or did not do that led to the death of his one and only patient.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-79808668123384813862011-02-07T21:21:52.430-08:002011-02-07T21:21:52.430-08:00I believe KZ already left a comment (somewhere) th...I believe KZ already left a comment (somewhere) that it would not have been pushed into the stomach by the CPR.<br /><br />Testimony from the prelim by either the coroner or Dr. Ruffalo indicated that the saturation levels can get there through the natural progression of saturation of fluids leaking from other organs/tissues near/beside where it was found. <br /><br />I hope KZ will expand more on this or clarify where I am wrong.<br /><br />I wanted to let everyone know that have Part 4 in hand, ready to edit. However, I've come down with a nasty bug/flu and I will start reviewing her article tomorrow and hopefully have it up on the web by early evening.<br /><br />Thank you everyone, for reading T&T.Sprockethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03837416113512618694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-35322189775927996432011-02-07T14:45:27.818-08:002011-02-07T14:45:27.818-08:00KZ:
Can you explain (maybe again) how
the minute a...KZ:<br />Can you explain (maybe again) how<br />the minute amount of propofol may have been found in stomach contents? Of course the defense will jump on this. My thought is<br />that the level were so high that<br />it seeped into the stomach or that aggressive CPR and rescue maneuvers caused it. I don't for a<br />minute believe MJ ingested it. <br />Thanks for your thoughts.<br />LaurenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-46469455804343427882011-02-07T10:37:37.282-08:002011-02-07T10:37:37.282-08:00KZ has written most of PART 4. Still a bit more w...KZ has written most of PART 4. Still a bit more work to do.<br /><br />Hopefully, it will be up on the blog late tonight or sometime tomorrow.Sprockethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03837416113512618694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-56387332222985201442011-02-07T06:49:32.759-08:002011-02-07T06:49:32.759-08:00I am so looking forward to Part IV.
This series is...I am so looking forward to Part IV.<br />This series is excellent.<br />Thank you again.<br />LaurenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-7931890623503582652011-02-07T06:33:27.868-08:002011-02-07T06:33:27.868-08:00Where is part 4?Where is part 4?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-14988820805009141012011-02-05T18:27:22.292-08:002011-02-05T18:27:22.292-08:00Johannes Mesherle
Thanks CaliGirl9. If someone ha...Johannes Mesherle<br />Thanks CaliGirl9. If someone had said "taser vs gun; Bart shooting" I would have remembered. I do think you blogged about this a while back.Sprockethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03837416113512618694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-38874498779024680942011-02-05T18:16:16.069-08:002011-02-05T18:16:16.069-08:00Although people do in fact awaken with a sense of ...Although people do in fact awaken with a sense of alert well being after sedation with Propofol, in that case we are looking at a normal use of the drug (i.e., sedation for a surgical procedure). <br /><br />We are looking at an isolated event where a person wakens refreshed and more clear headed than for other forms of anesthesia.<br /><br />We can not transfer that scenario seamlessly into a situation where a general anesthesia state is maintained nightly for 6-8 weeks. In that situation the deprivation of REM sleep that is not available to a person who is fully sedated does have an impact. Must research exists on the mental and physical degradation that REM sleep deprivation can cause.Meghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08231045692222392595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-89315043742453123652011-02-05T11:52:14.765-08:002011-02-05T11:52:14.765-08:00When I watched "This is It," I frequentl...When I watched "This is It," I frequently saw a man who was in pain based on the way he moved at times. I have got to give MJ credit—I cannot imagine pushing through back pain like he did. <br /><br />I've also read that people don't think he's "giving his all" during some of the sequences, and I agree. But why did he have to for rehearsals? He didn't. He had the moves down, and the mental ability to push through his pain and perform. And half of an MJ performance would have been more entertaining than a whole show of many artists out there today. <br /><br />He was worth more to AEG alive than dead. Anyone who thinks AEG was part of a conspiracy needs to really think about this. Even if MJ had been able to do only half the booked shows (and as I understand, he really cared about his fans, so I'd like to think he'd have gotten in all 40 dates one way or another), he was going to earn a boatload of money for everyone involved. "This is It" shows us what a fantastic show it would have been (not my cup of tea, but many people enjoy the spectacle), it was a first-class production that would have changed the way many performers deliver their craft. Bigger is better may well have become the industry norm. <br /><br />To suggest a conspiracy of any kind shows a lack of faith in MJ's abilities. There is no way AEG came out on top in all of this. No insurance policy could possibly make up for the loss of revenue MJ would have provided.CaliGirl9https://www.blogger.com/profile/06639398512708841968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-51852042279164971482011-02-05T11:35:55.927-08:002011-02-05T11:35:55.927-08:00Johannes Mesherle is the BART police officer who s...Johannes Mesherle is the BART police officer who shot a man who was being disruptive on a train early New Year's Day 2008 (?). The police officer meant to grab a taser but he took his service pistol out instead and shot the perp in the back. The whole thing was videoed from multiple cell phones. <br /><br />The trial was moved to LA County, heard last fall and already put to bed, and it's been the cause of much racial tension here in the Bay Area. Mesherle is white, the dead guy black. I think I wrote about it when it first happened. There's also a big fat lawsuit and BART did settle with the dead guy's baby mama.CaliGirl9https://www.blogger.com/profile/06639398512708841968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-28106153767172808932011-02-05T08:07:11.111-08:002011-02-05T08:07:11.111-08:00Lack of sleep issue:
Read back through the comment...Lack of sleep issue:<br />Read back through the comments. I'm not sure where it is. It's either on this thread or others. From my understanding, people who wake up from this anesthesia say they feel like they have had "the best sleep ever." <br /><br />Prosecutorial misconduct:<br />I'd like to see an actual independent study over many years before I'd believe that.<br /><br />This Is It Show:<br />Kenny Ortega testified and cleared up this issue of "The Show."<br /><br />There never was a plan for a film by the financiers of THIS IS IT. Ever. <br /><br />Here is the CROSS EXAMINATION of ORTEGA by ED CHERNOFF, taken from my own notes. I've bolded the most important part of the answer.<br /><br />________<br /><br />EC: When did filming begin for the THIS IS IT documentary?<br /><b>KO: We never filmed FOR that documentary.<br /><br />KO: (Michael) He asked to film the rehearsals. The interviews were done for shows that were to be done in London. We never started filming the documentary. The documentary was never a plan. The filming of rehearsals were for our personal use. And to review rehearsals. Sometimes he had a private camera rolling. It was always through via Michael’ s request.</b><br /><br />EC: Did you yourself do any film?<br />KO: No.<br />____________<br /><br />So, the "only thing" that was for the public were the interviews. Filming the rehearsals was for their own private use.<br /><br />AEG was <b>lucky</b> that Jackson requested rehearsals be filmed. Very lucky indeed.Sprockethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03837416113512618694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-6766626867272871292011-02-05T06:52:40.940-08:002011-02-05T06:52:40.940-08:00What is mind boggling is how is it possible for th...What is mind boggling is how is it possible for those who worked closely with Jackson on a daily basis NOT see that something was clearly NOT right with him and that he needed attention, being that he IS the show?<br /><br />Apparently the "powers that be" were salivating at completing the rehearsals, and the resulting blockbuster movie, at all costs?<br /><br />Is this any different from unethical lawyers salivating at winning a case at all costs?<br /><br />With the end justifying the means for many (more than the public is aware of), there needs to be more aggressive enforcement of the laws in this country to preserve the integrity of the system of justice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-49580799920235844832011-02-04T19:49:57.286-08:002011-02-04T19:49:57.286-08:00Thank you Sprocket. Prosecutorial misconduct is no...Thank you Sprocket. Prosecutorial misconduct is not investigated enough. Even when it is investigated, research has shown there is a gross imbalance in the number of convictions/penalties applied v the number of dismissals. This is a whole other issue though.<br /><br />@ Anne: I'm chomping at the bit too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-56851537455848624102011-02-04T19:42:40.226-08:002011-02-04T19:42:40.226-08:00Sprocket, it's understood that it was not lack...Sprocket, it's understood that it was not lack of sleep that actually killed the patient.<br /><br />But the lack of sleep has a similar effect on the body as being under the influence of meds. So that together with everything else the doctor was shooting into his patient's body would render his patient very weak. <br /><br />So, the patient, continually deprived of natural sleep, would grow progressively weaker over the weeks, at the same time the various meds being administered to the patient would have a more powerful, controlling and disabling effect on the patient...all of this resulted in the patient's death.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-63132182830323129272011-02-04T19:31:22.099-08:002011-02-04T19:31:22.099-08:00I am not familiar with the Johannes Mersherle case...I am not familiar with the Johannes Mersherle case. Is that LA County?<br /><br />I was trying to watch the witness and look at my computer screen to see how bad I was typing at the same time.<br /><br />Understand, I am familiar with Judge Pastor. I reported on most of a trial in his courtroom over a year ago, the <a href="http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2009/07/cameron-brown-retrial-quick-links.html" rel="nofollow">Cameron Brown Case.</a> <br /><br />Judge Pastor is not one to make a "lot" of facial expressions, but he does occasionally. He is a very fair judge and usually runs his courtroom like a tight ship....right on time. He will go right to 4:15pm, using as much of the time without going into overtime. He's very conscious about overtime. He does call parties on the carpet for being late to court or unprepared....he expects solid explanations and not BS excuses.<br /><br />During that case, big exhibit boards with huge enlarged photographs were shown to the jury by the prosecution. They were set up on an easel right in front of the jury box. <br /><br />Each and every time, Pastor left the bench, and situated himself in the gallery, right next to the jury box so that he could see exactly where the witnesses were pointing and describing. He's sharp. He stays right on top of things inside his courtroom.Sprockethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03837416113512618694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-17480198150757494952011-02-04T19:20:49.900-08:002011-02-04T19:20:49.900-08:00In addition to Nifong, Bonnie Dumanis comes to min...In addition to Nifong, Bonnie Dumanis comes to mind.<br /><br />Thank you for the link to the LA Superior Court high profile case document list. I faxed a request that they update the Murray document list, but they haven't. I have seen on another case (Johannes Mesherle) that the list of documents is extensive and complete. I wish they would post the motion documents and the minute orders. <br /><br />Also, I have wondered if you ever watched the judge during the prelim, and if he made any facial expressions worth mentioning?<br /><br />Thanks, and looking forward to your guest's part 4.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-28799697719654383192011-02-04T18:49:46.944-08:002011-02-04T18:49:46.944-08:00Anon @ 7:32am
I've never heard of anyone dyin...Anon @ 7:32am<br /><br />I've never heard of anyone dying because they lacked "natural, normal sleep" while being in an induced coma. Jackson did not die because he did not get natural sleep. He died from a combination of drugs given to him by his doctor that depressed his breathing. Respiratory arrest led to cardiac arrest. Not lack of sleep.<br /><br />If every attorney refused to defend someone because they were guilty, well, then, what would happen is, 80 to 90 % of the people so charged would go into court without an attorney.<br /><br />The truth is, most people charged <i>are</i> guilty. But in the eyes of the court, your are innocent until evidence and a jury proves you are not.<br /><br />I personally don't see anything wrong with an attorney representing a guilty individual to the best of their ability. I would hope every defendant has an attorney that is dedicated and passionate. Defense attorneys go to bat for their clients. <br /><br />They ensure that the evidence presented against their clients is obtained legally and entered into evidence at a trial legally. They ensure that laws are followed in the prosecution of their client.<br /><br />And, not all <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3285862&page=1" rel="nofollow">grandstanding media hound attorneys </a> are defense attorneys.Sprockethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03837416113512618694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-28432539725713915872011-02-04T18:21:06.648-08:002011-02-04T18:21:06.648-08:00Thanks for these valuable explanations and discuss...Thanks for these valuable explanations and discussions. I hope Part 4 will be posted soon - I know KZ is away, but I'm chomping at the bit. <br /><br />AnneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-43992865126988900252011-02-04T07:34:38.936-08:002011-02-04T07:34:38.936-08:00Unfortunately, some lawyers do whatever they have ...Unfortunately, some lawyers do whatever they have to make a name for themselves, whether their client is guilty or not. Ethics means nothing to them. That's the dark side of the profession!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-34280524604114184032011-02-04T07:32:38.173-08:002011-02-04T07:32:38.173-08:00Y'all seem to forget that during all these lon...Y'all seem to forget that during all these long WEEKS, the patient is living without normal or natural sleep. Don't you think that needs to be computed in the equation? IMO, this is the biggest and most important part of the equation. Propofol does NOT replace the patient's NEED for natural or normal sleep.<br /><br />I agree that this is slow TORTURE carried out by the doctor, leading to certain death of his one and only patient.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-30255312541747487862011-02-03T21:26:13.623-08:002011-02-03T21:26:13.623-08:00Alina at 2:41- I echo Sprocket that your English i...Alina at 2:41- I echo Sprocket that your English is clear! <br /><br />What I think you're asking, is does propofol leave a person with a drug hangover that would be obvious? How does an athletic dancer and singer function if they are receiving, in essence, a general anesthetic every night?<br /><br />This is not a short answer, but I'll try to keep it brief. <br /><br />We know MJ was not receiving ONLY propofol. He was also receiving several benzodiazepines at the same time. There is a phenomenon called tachyphylaxis that explains the process of physical dependence. In essence, the body becomes very efficient at removing the drugs. The cytochrome P450 enzyme system in the liver is partly responsible. <br /><br />There is a great study out of Japan from 2008 that tested driving (simulator) abilities of patients after receiving propofol, versus midazolam + propofol, versus no meds. These were non-tolerant patients, who had received sedation for colonoscopy or EGD. The take home message is that the propofol only group was back to baseline (actually BETTER) at about 2 hours. The propofol + midazolam group took about 3+ hours to get back to baseline on their driving responses. (Cant link the article tonight.)<br /><br />Anyway, propofol is a superb anesthetic precisely for the properties that make patients so functional after receiving it. Propofol inhibits nausea, induces a feeling of well being, and renders patients much more alert and functional than any other anesthetic. It's the Cadillac of anesthetics, so to speak. Often patients awaken and are immediately able to move to a stretcher, follow instructions, interact fairly clear headed, converse with the surgeon, pay attention to discharge instructions, etc. We absolutely love propofol for these properties. The drug has revolutionized same-day surgeries.<br /><br />We also must remember that CM was actively seeking ephedrine and other "wakeful" meds as part of his "care" of MJ. The compounding pharmacy was assisting in providing meds to help provide energy (stimulants). Poly pharmacy didn't stop with propofol and benzodiazepines. I'm personally on the fence as to whether the ephedrine was to help MJ wake up, or keep his BP from crashing on the propofol. Pretreatment with ephedrine is an "old" anesthetic technique. CM could have learned about it by phoning a friend. <br /><br />Hope this helps! <br /><br />~KZKZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6757696342634699253.post-80986738064118852872011-02-03T20:37:44.380-08:002011-02-03T20:37:44.380-08:00Anon @7:19pm:
Understand that defense attorney...Anon @7:19pm:<br /><br />Understand that defense attorney's defend clients all the time that they "know" are guilty. Often times these same attorneys will make statements to the press defending their clients and their client's wanting to tell their 'side of the story' in a court of law.<br /><br />No attorney can legally put a witness on the stand if they know the witness will lie (commit perjury). This goes for prosecutors and defense attorney's alike. I believe it is a crime to put a witness on the stand that you "know" will lie. It is a crime to lie under oath.<br /><br />I've watched a lot of crime shows over years, and it frustrates me to no end when the writers get it wrong. I know they've got it wrong because I've watched real trials and how the process works.<br /><br />Legally, an attorney cannot lie to anyone in the course of their work or their work on an investigation. That's different from <i>police and detectives</i> who can lie to a suspect or non-suspect in the course of their investigations.<br /><br />A defense attorney does not have to "believe" in their client's innocence to represent them. Their job, is to defend their client to the best of their ability. It's not necessarily to "find the truth" about what happened (that's the prosecutor's job) but to protect their client within the bounds of what is legal.<br /><br />Hypothetical situation here.<br />So, lets say a highly principled defense attorney finds out during the course of a trial that their client is 100% guilty. What that attorney decides to do is up to that particular attorney...but it may also not be in their power to abandon their client. Even if the attorney found himself ethically unable to adequately represent his client anymore, it would be up to a judge whether or not a defense attorney could "recluse himself" from representing a client mid-trial. IMHO, it's not likely to happen, unless of course, the client wishes to represent himself and the judge agrees.<br /><br />There are some former prosecutors who go onto private practice as defense attorneys who pick and choose who they decide to represent. Some don't care who they take on as clients; some do. Some defense attorneys may choose NOT to represent someone they suspect is guilty, especially if it is a crime such as murder. They can easily say, "no thanks, find someone else."<br /><br />Famous prosecutor <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Bugliosi" rel="nofollow">Vincent Bugliosi, </a> who convicted Charles Manson is one. Bugliosi wrote in one of his books that he turned down a request by Jeffrey MacDonald to represent him in the murder trial of MacDonald's wife and two children. (Those who don't know, the <a href="http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com/" rel="nofollow">Jeffrey MacDonald case</a> is a very famous case. He is a former army physician who was convicted of the brutal deaths of his wife and two daughters. He claimed that hippies broke into his duplex home, attacked him and killed his family.)<br /><br />Bugliosi wrote that he required Macdonald to take a polygraph before he would consider representing him. MacDonald declined.<br /><br />I hope that answers your question.Sprockethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03837416113512618694noreply@blogger.com