Lauren Sarene Key, 4, died November 8, 2000.
Copyright Sarah Key-Marer, all rights reserved.
UPDATE 5.8 2:20 PM final edit for spelling, readability and accuracy.
UPDATE 5/6 6:15 AM edited some of Dr. Booker's testimony for spelling, readability, accuracy.
UPDATE 12:45 PM edited some of Lynn Brown's testimony for spelling, readability, accuracy.
Tuesday May 5, 2015
After several stops, I finally get a seat on the train so I can type. Today will be a short by at least an hour. The Superior Court has requested that the building be completely empty by 3:00 PM because of the street closures celebrations that are scheduled in downtown for Cinco de Mayo.
I do not have yesterday’s entry fully edited. I will try to work on this entry during lunch.
Today, we will finish with Jan Mueller. I do not know the rest of the defense witnesses, However, I believe we will have the prior testimony of Brown’s mother read into the record. I will do my best but this type of testimony is difficult to keep up with, since there are no pauses or hesitations in questions and answers, like what you get in a live witness.
When I get inside the courtroom, DDA Hum and Mr. Laub and the court are arguing about what parts of Lynn Brown's prior testimony can be admitted into this trial. The court is deciding on the objections.
Sarah and her friend arrive.
DDA Hum also states there is proposed testimony of the defense investigator. Mr. Laub states that he is going to rest today. The court asks if his investigator is going to testify on the entirety of his report. Mr. Laub states that he is.
Judge Lomeli leaves the bench.
The witness Jan Mueller takes the stand but we are waiting for one juror. Judge Lomeli comments that they've never been late before.
While they are waiting, DDA Hum suggests that he and Mr. Laub go over the defense investigator's testimony. This is not the current investigator, but one that was on the case in 2009-2010.
Mr. Laub is to call Mr. Royce to testify when he interviewed Mr. Poingsett, he never reported what Brown said to his superiors and he wasn't contacted by police. DDA Hum gives the explanations that Poingsett gave to police why he didn't initially come forward. He heard Brown was arrested and that he wasn't getting out. [He felt they didn't need his testimony.] When investigators came to speak to him, he also feared for his life. [I'm not sure I have that correct.] DDA Hum states that he did testify under cross that he never used the words murder, kill [etc., more words]. The court reporter will verify that. If that's the case, then I believe Mr. Laub agrees he does not need to call this witness.
Jury files in.
Judge asks the jurors who it was that was late. There is a pleasant conversation as to who it was.
One page letter failure to appear to be marked People's 143. Defendant did not show up for scheduled mediation on September 14, 1999.
Question about her question she wanted to ask DDA Hum from yesterday.
Cross ends and redirect examination begins.
When you were testifying yesterday, you had concerns about Mr. Brown's emotional stability, was that something that came from your observations in the meetings? Yes, it was.
Was that based on Mr. Brown's allegations of child abuse of the mother that you didn't believe? No, I had concerns before that.
Did it have to do with frustration? Frustration and anger.
And you felt his frustration and anger.... ? It's not unusual for parties to be very emotional, but I would say that he was more distrustful and angry than usual. It seemed like he was mistrustful of the process. ... But I still had some concerns about those issues. [Brown was better in the second session.]
There were some issues that had come up about wanting to take Lauren on his boat, and why that wasn't a good idea for a 3 year old and not having a life jacket, and some issues like that.
Since, I've sent you your testimony from 2006 and a report with Detective Leslie. Did you review? Yes I did.
Whether you had felt Mr. Brown from your observations from him, where he had actually loved Lauren Yes. Reading the prior testimony, ... Laub asks the question again. Objection. Sustained.
Laub now asks a more detailed question. Objection. Sustained.
Is it part of your job to determine that [there is love between a parent and child?] I don't believe so.
Did Mr. Brown expressed himself passionately about spending time with Lauren. I know that word has been used before, but not how I would [identify].
Did he express that he wanted to spend more time with Lauren? Yes.
Did he, in his face and demeanor, when he said he wanted to spend more time with Lauren, how would you characterize it? That he wanted to spend more time with Lauren.
Another question about how Brown appeared [regarding seeing Lauren]. He seemed engaged. He seemed excited.
Another question about the finances. We don't discuss finances in mediation.
No redirect but Mr. Laub has another question.
Laub corrects that she isn't a psychologist.
The witness is excused.
Dr. Booker is the next defense witness.
Tall black man, a trauma specialist. Gives his training as a trauma specialist in brain behavior.
Currently owns a practice in the South Bay area. Worked for the past ten years in evaluation PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder] in veterans. Is asked to describe what PTSD is. Psychiatric conditions a person experiencing a life threatening event. Also experienced in assesses malingering. Malingering is, a phenomenon when individuals intentionally seek to feign or misrepresent themselves in relation to clinical data. He is an expert on the court's panel.
At the VA medical center. Member of the medical staff in psychiatry. I am part of the professional standards board, reviewing members of the clinical staff, more CV.
Doctorate in applied adults clinical psychology in brain behavior relationships. Has post doctorate training, in adult trauma related behavior. Construct of brain behavior relationships on how the brain functions.
More of his CV, he teaches at Irvine. Has several peer review publications. Multiple conference presentations.
In this case, I contacted you and asked you to review materials? Yes that is correct.
I reviewed a 911 audio recording, a written transcript for Nov 8, 2000. Reviewed a LA County incident report dated 11/8/2000. Also reviewed two LA county sheriff's supplemental reports dated 11/8/2000.
In sending you these materials, I posed to you, if you saw anything in Mr. Brown that is consistent with trauma or shock. Did you come to an opinion. Yes. My opinion is, after having reviewed those materials, the behavior exhibited by Mr. Brown is consistent with behavior we recognize as shock, secondary to trauma.
What did you see in Mr. Brown's actions that was consistent with shock related to trauma? There is not traumatic one on one relation. With respect to what I reviewed, specifically, the behavior htat Mr. Brown exhibited, with example asking about the results of the election, would be comparable to post traumatic shock.
Mr. Brown's affect, and lack of apparent emotions, would that be considered [?]? Yes. the absence of any overt emotion or behavior, that would be consistent with psychological shock. Without any overt emotion.
Miss next question.
Those two poles, overt hysteria, and or they may exhibit no emotion? They may have a complete flat affect. Appear emotionless. Seem as if they were in a daze, so yes. Would the reporting of what happened in the trauma, would the reporting of what happened in the trauma, what happened to Lauren, variations would that be consistent with shock?
I mean the details of content. yes. We recognize that one of the key components of shock is that they have a very difficult time remembering details. Amnesia.
When you say amnesia, it sounds as if someone has a total blank. How about a person who is given the report, is giving [the details] again, the details vary. Is that consistent or inconsistent. That is consistent with shock following trauma.
What can happen is that details of the traumatic even in how they are encoded in the brain, they are in bits and pieces, so they don't have a full picture, immediately, those memories become more integrated [verses?] disintegrated.
So what may appear to be bizarre behavior ... Mr. Brown took off some of his clothes when he dived in to remove Lauren from the water, ...[Mr. Laub details the 'learned on Baywatch explanation], is the expression of strange thoughts and thinking along these lines, .... consistent?
I would characterize it as uncharacteristic behavior [and] is consistent with someone who is experiencing psychological shock. some people are detached between what's happening and reality. They may behave in unconventional ways so to say.
Did you listen to the 911? That's correct.
And listen to the tone and ways that Mr. Brown expressed himself? Yes.
And he was telling people at the nude beach to put their clothes on and his manner of speaking, ...?
It would be consistent with a person in shock. There's something that we call an inappropriate affect. It's how someone appears emotionally or physically. There's no one to one correlation, but it is consistent with someone that has experienced psychological shock.
And [you] read statements of officers at the scene had been with Mr. Brown and spoke with Mr. Brown? That is correct.
After looking through everything, is there anything that stood out for you, as being inconsistent with a person who is in shock. No there is nothing, that reflects malingering.
Am I correct in understanding that [it] flagged for you the concern that Mr. Brown may have been facing shock? Yes. That is correct.
Direct ends and cross begins.
Dr. Booker, malingering, you actually test for malingering? Yes I do.
There are tests that are set up, you can test for it? That's correct, yes.
So it's not reading a couple police reports, you actually test? That's correct.
In this case, you read reports? That's correct.
On Nov 8, 2000, you were no where near Inspiration Point? That's correct.
And you were not present during the interview of November 9, 2000? I was not.
What your basing your testimony on, are a few written reports of reported observations of officers as well as the 911 call? That's correct.
You didn't read any of the transcripts of the testimony in this case? No I did not.
When were you first contacted? Oh maybe a month ago.
And when did you receive the material that you reviewed? Shortly there after.
You read some supplemental reports dated 11/8/2000, or they related to events that occurred on 11/8/2000? They related to events on that date.
You mentioned, something called, [depersonalization] /derealization? That's correct.
Obviously [you are] as a physiologist? Yes.
[I believe Dr. Booker is asked to explain the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist.]
Psychologist's are trained at doctoral level in appraising human behavior without prescription privledges and not in a school of medicine.
Psychiatrist is a medical doctor? That's correct.
He is familiar with the DSM [Diagnostic and Statistical Manual].
There was revision called the DSM-5? Yes.
In the DSM-5, there actually a mental disorder called, depersonalization/derealization? Yes. That's one of the new classifications. They extracted them from acute stress.
They made them one because it was two before? We could go with that.
[DDA Hum asks him to be exact.] They were a larger construct of acute stress. Now they can be stand alone conditions.
And there is criteria for diagnosing depersonalization/ derealization disorder? Yes.
Was the behavior reported in the police report, enough to diagnose depersonalization/derealization diagnosis? I would say no.
You [are] on the Superior Court's Board? [I'm not sure if I have this question correct. DDA Hum may be referencing the approved list of professional experts on the Superior Court.] Yes, on the panel.
How many times have you testified for traumatic shock? Five times.
Testified in court five times, Traumatic stress disorder.
That's different from traumatic shock? Yes.
First time testifying on traumatic shock? That's not correct.
The disorder of traumatic stress disorder is a disorder. ... Traumatic ... PTSD is a disorder. ... Shock really is, a syndrome that is in reference [to that disorder?].
You're not testify that these symptoms in these police reports, is significant to diagnose someone with PTSD? I'm not making that diagnosis, correct.
And the five times that you testified in Superior Court, how many times has that been for the defense? Every time it's been for the defense.
There are a number of, behaviors that could be consistent with someone who is suffering from derealization/ depersonalization, in addition to the ones reported in the police report? Yes.
[DDA Hum appears to read from a list of symptoms. I don't get them all.]
Dizzy, light headed, being an observer, feeling that head is wrapped in cotton, or that legs and arms are longer or shorter, feeling like living in a movie? Feeling ... [miss reading]? That's correct.
That there is distortion of perception of time, distortion of distance and size and shape of objects? Correct.
Isn't it also true that according to the DSM-5 criteria depersonalization/ derealization is very rare in someone older? Yes. That's part of the new definition.
You would agree, that not everyone who experiences a traumatic event is in shock? That is correct.
You did however, state that, certainly someone who is acting hysterically, that someone is someone who is experiencing shock? That's correct.
Essentially, it would appear, anyone no matter how they appear, could be experiencing shock? That's correct.
[Miss question.] I would say that its specific and predicated on the behavior they are experiencing.
Specifically, High emotion or no emotion.
Now, it would seem obvious, is behavior of traumatic shock or depersonalization does not cause someone to commit a crime? I would say yes, that is correct.
And, someone who exhibits, symptoms of depersonalization or derealization or PTSD, that is not evidence of any emotional attachment to a victim of a traumatic shock? Ask question again.
That would not be necessarily evidence of attachment, to the victim of an event? That is correct.
DDA Hum gives an example of a bomb going off [and people being upset and not knowing the people injured].
Behavior of someone who exhibits behavior or little emotion, is not necessarily experiencing depersonalization/ derealization, they could just not care? That's correct.
Someone experiences a traumatic event, could experience the same thing? Yes, that's true.
And someone who causes a traumatic event could also be the cause of that event? That is correct.
Cross ends and redirect begins.
Dr. Booker. Why don't we talk about the DSM-5.
That edition replaced the DSM-4? It replaced the DSM-4TR.
And one of the things that came out on cross examination, that what had been a larger diagnosis for acute stress, has now been broken down into independent depersonalization/ derealization order, is that correct? With this caveat. It's not been the exclusion of PTSD. What's happened is, depersonalization and derealization, according to some research groups, deserved greater attention as stand alone disorders.
Within the psychatiatric community there's been criticism for creating what is now a greater multitude of greater disorders, because it plays into the pharmaceutical and medical industries, that now address these [scandalus? issues?]. In some respects I would say that's true.
He did no see or diagnose Mr. Brown? No.
Would it make any sense to diagnose the person he was 15 years ago? No that wouldn't make any sense.
Not making a diagnosis [of Mr. Brown] 15 years ago? No I am not.
Now when asked about the prosecution about disorders, ... [?] ?
It would be an impossibility at this time to diagnose Brown? I agree.
DDA Hum asks that questions not be leading. Laub agrees.
Because coming in at this time, does that limit your professional opinion. Yes it does. And listening to audio tapes, ti doesn't make it able to make a diagnosis.
I'm rendering a clinical opinion, that behavior at one point in time is consistent with construct of traumatic stress.
The things you observed by others and the things you heard on the tape, exhibit symptoms of a way person could react in a state of shock? The things I heard and reviewed in this case, suggest to me, those things are consistent with the people that we experience post traumatic shock.
Prosecutors have contacted him but he has not been asked to testify. If asked, would you have? Yes.
The witness is excused.
The bailiff give a few jurors new notebooks.
Do you know Mr. Brown? Yes.
When did you meet him? Approximately. Been about 10 12 years ago at the farmer's market in Redondo Beach. ... We do a farm up in Fresno. Still do that.
Met him at the farmer's market? Yes.
Tell us a bit about your interactions with Mr. Brown at the farmer's market? I was wearing a motorcycle t-shirt. He's aked me if I rode dirt bikes. We would talk about riding and things like that.
Had you ever ridden professionally? Yes. Won awards? Yes.
They became friends. and rode 2 times together. Went to gorman and trail riding. Took him to the motocross park and we went riding together.
He mentioned to me that he was going to get custody of his daughter from a previous relationship. When he talked to you about it [did he seem ... ?] ?. He seemed fine. He seemed like a pretty happy go lucky guy.
Do you remember a phone call from Mr. Brown around Halloween 200)? I can't say that I do.
Did you in Halloween of 2000 .... [?]? He asked if he could bring his daughter to Halloween. I think my son was 3 at the time, almost 4.
Before he asked you, did you talk to him about ?? I think so, yeah.
Did he acutally come over and join you? He did. Did he bring his daugher Lauren? He did.
Was anyone else with him? No I don't think so.
[How did it happen?] Met up at his brother Randy's house. Was a big group of kids.
How was Lauren? She was a cute little girl dressed up as a princess. She seemed like she was having fun.
How long were they out trick or treating? They were all pretty young. I don't thing it was more than an hour.
[Did you walk or drive?] We all walked together.
[When was the next time you saw him?] I saw him about a week after that. At the farmers market at the pier. ... He looked, he didn't look happy. His eyes were kind or red, his eyes were kind of shaken up.
Did he ask you if you had seen the story about a child falling off the cliff. I didn't He said that his daughter Lauren had fallen off a cliff. he took her up there and he was broken up.
Did he have tears in his eyes? Yes.
Did he appear to be in shock? Yes. Objection. Stricken.
Direct ends and cross begins.
You said that Lauren appeared to be having fun? Yeah.
Walking around with a bunch of kids and getting free candy? Yes, Cam had her on his shoulders for a time.
Did it seem unusual to you that a little four year old girl would enjoy that, going around and getting candy? [Miss answer.]
So a bunch of kids, about 20 or so on Halloween of 2000? Yes.
Did you and the defendant socialize other than that? He came over to my house once before and I helped him move into a new place, he was getting a new apartment at the time.
Testified in 2009, under oath? Yes.
Reading prior testimony./ questions.
Now would you say that you were friend with the defendant? [Your answer.] We were acquaintences.
You spent time on Halloween? Yes.
And you went dirt bike riding? Yes.
And did you socialize with the defendant beyond meeting at the farmers market, going dirt bike riding a few times, talked on the phone but that's about it? Yes.
First time contacted about this case was also back in 2009? Correct.
So about nine years after your encounter with the defendant at the farmer's market, was the first time [you were] contacted about this case? Correct.
And would it be accurate to say, when you spoke to the defense investigator, you stated that the defendant was crying and physically upset? Yes. So he was displaying emotion in public? Yes.
He didn't tell you that it was just his daughter just died. It was Lauren and they think I did it? Isn't that what he said? I believe so, yes.
Do you remember, what day of the week this was? It had to be Thursday, because it was Redondo Beach.
So you take produce from the farm and sell it? Correct. Brother in law owns the farm in Fresno.
When you first met the defendant, you thought it was 10 12 years ago? It had to have been about a year or two before this incident occurred? Yes.
So went dirt bike riding twice and met Lauren once? Yes.
No further questions.
Mr. Laub needs. to coordinate the transcript corrections for his witness.
Will need the to take a break.
The court calls for the morning break, and they will be back at 11 AM. It's
Mrs. Laub who will be reading testimony into the record again.
The power/energy bars come out again for DDA Hum and Detective Leslie.
Back on the record.
Person on the stand who read testimony to you previously. The testimony Ms. Garrett will read the testimony of
What is your relationship with Cameron Brown? Cameron is my son.
You have 4 boys? Yes. Cameron was second in line? Yes.
The witness is asked if her mother and father are still alive. Mother and father not alive.
Your mother owned a house on The Strand in Redondo Beach? Yes.
The witness is asked when her mother died. She died in 2004 or 2003; I can't remember. She lived there for seven years [On The Strand.]
The witness and her husband were living in Idaho. She got a call from her sister that her mother had Alzheimer's. She came to live with her mother and take care of her. [I believe her husband followed a year later.]
Mother lived on The Strand? Yes. It's a wide strip of cement that goes along the beach. ... It was beachfront property.
Were there times when Cameron Brown would come and stay with you? He lived there [with her mother, Brown's grandmother.] He would help her, [the grandmother].
What would he do? Everything. [Mentions many home improvement tasks like putting on new shingles, etc.] She wore diapers. He would hold her up while I would change her. He would do the grocery shopping. ... He lived with her on and off, helped her after her mother's husband died. ...[He would] Protect her.... Driver her places in that big truck.
Now questions about the family growing up and the activities they participated in.
Family participated in a lot of outdoor activities when they [the four boys] were growing up. They all continued and still do it [outdoors activities] to this day.
Did you meet a young girl named Lauren Key? I did.
[How did that come about?] Her mother called me and asked me if I knew she had a granddaughter. I didn't. I was thrilled and we set up a time to meet.
[Question about meeting Lauren and Sarah.] Yes we met her. My sister lived in Huntington Beach, and she put on a big [Christmas?] party event. [I got ] to meet [Sarah, Greg,] Lauren and Josh. Cameron was asked to stay away by Sarah.
Met Lauren for about a year. Lauren came down, sometimes every weekend. Sometimes every other weekend. Sometimes the witness drove down to Lauren's house.
When we first met, Sarah and I spent time together. Sometimes Sarah would leave and go visit a friend in the Valley. And I got to visit with Lauren by myself. [The witness enjoyed that.]
So sometimes she would leave Lauren and you would have Lauren to yourself? Yes.
Was Cameroon living there at some of the times during these visits? Yes.
He was told he had to leave the house when Lauren came? Yes.
Would you describe her as a docile sit on the floor type of girl? Just the opposite. ... She was very active. She would run down to the beach to the water. She would climb up on the table and go around the pole like a Maypole. [I was scared.] I would have to catch her. She would jump [off the table?]. She was a busy girl. And she also had quiet times where I would read to her.
Witness is s asked about one time where Lauren wasn't careful. She had come running up from the beach. because she had seen her friend Shannon. And I was [shouting? yelling?] at her not to cross the bike path. [Lauren kept running toward her friend, crossing the bike path.] And she barely missed getting run over by a bike.
The witness is asked about what type of activities she would do with Lauren.
We would walk on the beach, on The Strand.
Did she like the beach? She did. We spent a lot of time on the beach when the weather was nice. She had toys things [the witness bought for her] that you fill with wet sand and make imprints in the sand. She would dig. We would walk and search for seashells. [There's more.]
Would you also go down by the piers? I wouldn't take her to the Manhattan beach pier, it was too far for me. But I would take her to an old pier. Would she walk long distances with you? Yes. [I believe the witness is asked if Lauren would walk a mile, mile and a half distances with her, and the witness said yes, and that Lauren didn't have a problem with that.]
I believe the witness is asked if Lauren needed to be carried.
The only time she would want to be carried is if she didn't have her shoes and the sand was too hot.
There were times that your son would pick her up in Orange County? Yes.
Now questions about where people lived at the time, and who lived where. Where Sarah lived, where her sister lived, where Brown lived.
He [Brown] lived in your house? That's right.
You knew Sarah lived in Huntington Beach? Yes.
And you knew he was going down to pick up Lauren? That's right.
He would bring Lauren there? Yes.
Did you ever get a phone call from Sarah, saying that Cam did not bring Lauren back? No.
So questions about the travel and where Cam stayed and if Sarah ever stayed with her.
So when he would bring Lauren to the house, she would observe Cam with Lauren.
They were very affectionate. He was shy at first.
Did he seem to take pride in being a father? Yes. Did he seem to be enjoying it? Yes.
Would he talk to you about Lauren? He was very proud of her.
Did something happen before her death? He was concerned that she was being abused. He would bring me photos of bruises.
There were no [other] children, nephews or nieces in their family? Brown seemed to be trying to learn to be a father.
I remember one time, walking on a boat dock to see an old boat [that a friend of Brown's had]. And Lauren was running and Cam told her to stop but she wouldn't.
Did it appear to you that Cam was making efforts to see Lauren? Yes.
Did a rift occur between you and your son Cameron? A small one. Not a big one.
Did you argue with Cam during this time period? Yes.
When you would argue would he be visibly upset? Yes.
In this time period, were you getting to see Lauren on a frequent basis, and Cam only saw her on his court ordered visits? Yes.
And when you saw her Cam couldn't be there ? Yes.
Did you in actuality, make an effort to see Lauren because she was her granddaughter because Cam couldn't see her because of the court order? Yes.
Was this the basis of the argument that you and Cam got into? Yes.
Questions about Cam growing up.
He was the most sensitive of the children I think. He would bring me rocks and stones and [always] sending birthday cards when he got older. He always remembered birthdays and Christmas.
After he became a man and moved away, did you maintain a strong bond with Cameron? Yes.
Brothers and other sons, [she] had strong bonds with them. And Brown had strong bonds with his father and brothers.
More questions about the rift they had.
Did you ever tell Sarah, during that time that she couldn't speak ill of Cam, in front of Lauren? Yes. Did you tell her to stop it? Yes. Did she? She did.
She went through the same thing with Cam.
[The witness was asked if she spoke to them both together about this.] They weren't together, but I spoke to them separately and they stopped it.
Did Detective Leslie come to your home at some point? He did.
What did he ask you he could do? He said that he thought that Cam was not guilty, and I think he said that he could help him. I don't remember much. I ended up crying. I remember Ian coming to my rescue.
Another question about what Detective Leslie said.
Now a question about whether Sarah came to her home after Lauren died.
Sarah came to her house. She had been away and when she arrived, Sarah was waiting at her house. She asked me if Cam had done it. I said no, He's devastated. I gave her a hug and walked in the house.
Now there are occasions, that Lauren was picked up by Brown at Lauren's home and at her school, where Lauren would throw a fit and not want to go [with him].
Was there the same thing that happened with Lauren when Sarah came to pick up Lauren? Yes, I remember one time where we were trying to get Lauren in the car and she was arching her back and didn't want to go.
Now there are many questions about Brown and money.
Cam was the least of her sons, to ask for money.
The doll collection. Her mother had collected these dolls, and they were part of the family. Did Cam at some point and ask you for something? He asked if he could give one of the dolls to Lauren. It took him a week to decide, because he wanted to pick out the best. Did those dolls have great sentimental value for your family? They did.
Mr. Laub and DDA Hum whisper off the record.
Mr. Laub tells the court: We need a moment to set up and exhibit that's already been seen before.
[It's very difficult to get all the testimony. I missed quite a bit.]
A video of Lauren, walking around on roller skates in a garage is shown.
I'll ask you to identify pieces of video. Does that appear to be Lauren to you?
[What we are seeing are the video clips of Lauren that was played during Sarah's testimony.]
Is that Lauren on inline skates? On inline skates.
Does that appear to be Lauren playing in the sand and the dirt? That's Lauren.
Is that Lauren playing on Monkey bars at the park? Yes.
Does that appear to be Lauren attempting to skateboard? Yes.
Brown looks up at the video as Lauren scoots along the sidewalk, sitting on the skateboard.
Does that again appear to be Lauren playing at the park? [Yes.]
Does that appear to be Lauren with the tire? Yes.
Brown still watches the video.
Does that appear to be Lauren playing in the water? Yes.
That is Lauren walking through the mud and water near the park? Yes, it looked like her.
Is that Lauren playing atop those large pipes? Yes.
Does that appear to be Lauren at the beach? Yes.
Does that appear to be Lauren walking in the ocaean? Yes.
[Something about the skateboard. But I'm not sure]
Direct is finished cross begins.
The video continues to play to the end.
Judge Lomeli asks that the video be stopped.
Direct ends and cross examination begins.
Those video clips that we saw of Lauren did you take those No.
Did your son take those? No.
IS this the first time you've seen them? Yes.
In any of those videos, did you see Lauren hiking? No.
She was present in the courtroom during the first proceeding and at [part of] the second proceeding?
Actually shortly after Detective, Leslie came into your house, you asked him to leave. because you wanted him to speak to your son's lawyer? Ian asked him to leave, because I was getting upset.
Do you remember your son Ian, asking Detective Leslie to go through your son's lawyer? Yes.
Do you remember me asking you at the prior proceeding, at the prior proceeding you said why would I need a laywer? I never did. ... I think it was Ian who said, that we wanted our lawyer there, to get theim out of the house.
So just to get Detective Leslie to get out of the house? That is the way I feel.
Are there other instances where you had to help your son out? No.
There are questions about the former girlfriend, and her testimony about Mrs. Brown paying for the damage to her car.
Testifies, that if Ms. Allen testified about you paying her $600.00 that would be a lie? Yes.
Have you been talking to your son's wife about the testimony in these proceedings? Only about that.
More questions about her conversations with Patty about the trial.
Cannot remember him [Brown] ever asking to borrow money. He always worked and made his own money and bought his own toys and bought the clunky cars.
So are you telling us now, that your son never asked to borrow money? I don't remember. Maybe for a senior ring in high school.
More questions about Cameron and if he ever asked if he borrow money. She can't remember if Cameron ever did.
Now questions about buying cars for the other sons. You said that you had bought cars for your other sons. Yes. And the defense attorney asking if Cameron ever asked you to buy a car. And if he did, you certainly would have bought him a car? We had an extra car that we gave to him. He didn't ask for it and we didn't buy it for him.
The witness insists. We didn't buy it for him, and he never ask him for it.
Brown watches the witness read his mother's prior testimony.
Questions about if her other son Ian, testified at a prior proceeding about Cameron being given a car.
Have you been to visit your son in jail? Yes. When we lived here, we went on a regular basis. Now that we live in Missouri, it was hard to get there.
She is asked how many times she visited her son. About 10 times because I was taking care of my mother. My husband went more than I did.
Do you remember when you son married Patty? Yes. They were married in Hawaii, so we couldn't go there. Doesn't remember when [the date] Brown and Patty got married.
[This testimony was orginally taken over two days. This is the second day.]
Doesn't remember if it was her son or Patty who called you and told her about Jane Doe? It might have been Cameron telling me about the Jane testimony.
In any way over the phone or by letter, how many times does she talks to Patty? She doesn't remember. Naybe 10 times, and by email much more. And significantly more than 10 emails back and forth?
In the past two months? We've had 10 phone calls.
You've been in Missouri? Yes.
And you know the trials been going on, correct? Yes.
And you've been interested int the proceeding, and this numerous emails, the defendants wife hasn't told you what's been going on in court? No. We usually talk about Cam and how badly he's doing.
We just don't talk about the trail. Patty and I, talk about Cam.
So it's your testimony today, that it was your son who told you about Jane Doe? Yes.
But you told us yesterday that it was your daughter in law? I thought it might have been [but it was Cam.]
Is it your testimony that your son called you up and told you things that he had done? Things that he's done in the past.
Questions, about Jane, and the witness states she never knew her.
Questions about when she lived in Colorado, and when her son lived with her there, when he moved out, etc. Cameron went away to college for a couple of years.
At that point in time, it is your testimony that you had a good relationship with your son? Yes.
And you would discuss what was going on in his life? No.
So it's your testimony, he never told you about a girlfriend that he had at the time?
Insists that she didn't know "Jane" and explains that her son Ian had known a Jane who had a crush on him. [She thinks that's who this Jane was.]
Questions about the photos of Lauren that her son showed her. Didn't you tell your son that bruises on children is common? [miss answer]
Questions about if she knew that her son told her about what he said to a court mandated reporter.
Now more questions about the bruises, and if she had spoken to her son's lawyer previously about the bruises and who brought up the issue.
At this proceeding you volunteered information that you weren't asked about? Yes.
The court orders the noon break. After the jury leaves, the court asks Mr. Laub if he has any more witnesses. He does not. The defense will rest.
After the defense rests, the prosecution will call Detective Leslie as a rebuttal witness.
Back inside Dept. 107. Sarah is by herself. Her friend must have left.
Mr. Laub, DDA Hum and Detective Leslie are having a friendly conversation in the well. They appear to be going over testimony.
Brown has not been brought out yet.
DDA Hum, Detective Leslie, the bailiff and the court reporter joke about the names of colors and the word "Taupe" and what color that is. The court reporter is wearing a pretty fuchsia colored sweater.
Brown is brought out. The clerk calls in the hallway for the jurors.
The jury gets settled.
We are back on the record in the matter of people verses Cameron Brown. People you may continue.
Continuing with cross examination.
Have you spoken with your son's lawyer in the past month? I haven't. My husband has.
Within a week of the prior proceeding you spoke with your son's lawyer? I don't remember.
Isn't it true that within a few days, of the proceeding, you spoke to your son's lawyer's? I don't remember that either.
Isn't it true that you sent your son's lawyers an email about Lauren prior to the previous proceedings? I guess I did. [ The document is shown to the witness.]
Do you remember testifying prior that two days prior and three days prior to testifying in the previous proceeding, you spoke to your son's lawyer before testifying? Yes. It said I spoke to them in the hall.
More cross examination as to what she remembers she did, speaking with her son's lawyers going over her testimony.
We went over what happened what happened prior to Lauren going up in the hills.
[Brown] ived in her mother's house on the Strand. Moved in there in 1999.
Over what period of time, did your son live there? I can't remember. He would live there and then live on his boat, then sell the boat.
[You? Brown?] lived there until 2004? I think it was longer than that.
Beginning in 1999, your son Cameron started living there? I think he was living on a boat, then he sold it and came down and helped with my mother.
When? I'd say about 1999. And lived there until he married Patty.
Is it then your testimony that he bought another sail boat and lived on that boat? No he had bought another sail boat but it wasn't liveable.
Testimony about other parents.
Was there some type of a camera at your mother's house on the strand? Oh there was a surf company that set that camera up. And that was in El Portal? That's correct.
Met Lauren through Sarah? That's right. You met Lauren through Sarah, not your son? Correct.
But he didn't introduce you to your granddaughter, Sarah did? [Yes.]
You first met Lauren at a Christmas party at your sisters house in Huntington Beach? Yes.
Isn't it true that the first time you met Lauren, it was at your mother's house and it was Sarah who brought her? No.
So it's your testimony that there was a Christmas Party, and your husband came and your family came but Sarah said Brown couldn't come. Yes.
Questions about what type of party it was. It was a Christmas Party to met Lauren.
It's your testimony that Sarah would say derogatory things about your son the defendant? Yes.
So is it your testimony that the first time you met Lauren that Sarah would say derogatory things to you, about your son, [at this Christmas Party]? No, it was at my mother's house.
DDA Hum reads her prior testimony from 2006, where she said that the first three or four visits, Sarah would say negative things about the defendant. But also states, that the first time she met Sarah was at the Christmas Party.
Isn't it true that she would bring Lauren by once a month to visit? No.
Is it your testimony that Sarah made Brown leave when she would bring Lauren by? Yes.
More cross on her testimony as to how often Sarah brought Lauren to her house at the beach and how often he brought Lauren to her home after he got married.
Were there times where he would bring Lauren to you while he went out and surfed? Yes.
Were there times when he would bring Lauren to your house and he would go to sleep? No.
Is it your testimony now that your sister brought Lauren to visit? [?]
Now your testimony is that your son would bring his daughter to the beach and he would watch her? Well we would both watch her. And when he was surfing? She would watch Lauren.
Now cross on when Brown asked to bring Lauren before she died and she told him not to bring her.
Claims that the reason she said not to bring Lauren was because she didn't want Lauren to see her great grandmother was having an episode.
More about what she said about in the email to Brown's attorney, that Brown couldn't come to her mother's house because of her bad knees?
Now prior testified that Brown loved Lauren.
Now asking if she knew that Brown tried to have Sarah have an abortion.
Asking if she knew the defendant tried to have her [Sarah] deported.
If she was aware that when her son would try to pick up Lauren she would try to hide?
More questions about whether she knew what other people observed of Brown's behavior or statement.
Now questions about if she was aware of things that Brown had said about her.
If she was aware [about how Brown didn't want her to see Lauren, that he called her a bad mother, that he said she was an evil woman, that he signed a court order saying his family had disowned him.] No answers, to all those questions.
If your son had done those things, would it still be your testimony that you had a good relationship with your son? I don't think he did those things.
That's not what I asked you. I would think we would have a bad relationship.
Cross ends and redirect begins.
About writing in the email that you feel some responsibility for Lauren's death. I do.
Because Cam called and asked if he could bring Lauren over, and you said no? That's right.
You're aware are you not, that the prosecution has accused him of per-planning, taking her to Inspiration Point to kill her? The day that he was supposedly per-planning to take her to that cliff, he called you? He did.
She sat in the gallery during all the last prior proceeding, and heard all the testimony about what Lauren said, etc.
She was not present when these events occurred, but she was at the prior proceeding where these events were testified to.
I can't keep up. The testimony is coming too fast for me.
In a prior proceeding, did you ever see any document, or evidence, that Cameron ever yelled at Lauren? No.
More questions about if she and the attorney spoke in the halls. What did I tell you? Just speak from the heart and be honest.
Now questions about what the defense attorney and she talked about in those conversations.
Now questions as to whether the attorney spoke to her husband and not her, about when they talked about this proceeding .
She had health issues in 2009. Have I ever called you to talk to you about these proceedings? No.
Did I call and talk to your husband? Yes.
Now questions about living with Brown in Colorado and this woman Jane. Her son is not the type that would open up and talk about things. Didn't know all the names of his girlfriends. Did he ever bring this Jane to the house? No, never.
Now questions about the bruises on the legs.
Did anyone ever tell you what to say in your testimony? No.
Were you aware that Cameron only had one hour a day initially? One hour a week initially? No.
Were you aware initially, that he had to have Sarah present initially? No.
Were you aware that he originally only saw Lauren in Orange county? No.
Initially, Sarah would bring Lauren to your home, because Cam wasn't allowed to?
And the first time you got to meet Lauren, was this Christmas party? Yes. And your husband was there? No he wasn't there. [Oh, it was your Aunt.]
It was because her sister lived near Sarah, and her sister offered to have a little dinner to meet Lauren and her family.
Would your sister occasionally go by and pick up Lauren and bring her to your house? Yes.
Were those the days that Cameron had visitation? No.
I think these were days where Sarah had something to do, and my sister brought her.
And were there days where Sarah would also come with your sister too? Yes.
You testified that Lauren was quite active? Yes.
More questions about Lauren's level of activity and if [she? Cameron?] needed help looking after Lauren.
Do you remember a phone conversation with Sarah, after Lauren's death where she asked you about Cameron? No. I remember another one.
The defense has rested.
The prosecution has a rebuttal witness, Detective Leslie. There is a sidebar.
Judge tells them they are going to stop at 2:45 today.
People recall Detective Leslie
DETECTIVE JEFFREY LESLIE
Detective Leslie is asked a few questions about defense witnesses that he interviewed.
Do you remember Aron Carter .. was he contacted the day after Lauren's death? No it was a week later.
First checkpoint on 11/15? Correct.
Second checkpoint was on 11/22? Yes.
Now you heard testimony about a web site being run by the defendant's brother in law? Yes.
That's the defendant's wife's, twin brother, ... [and the website is] called Free Cam Brown? Yes.
Now, you also heard testimony from Ian Brown and Lynne Brown? That's correct.
DDA Hum and Laub confer off the record.
Is that Lynne Brown, the defendant's mother? Photo [of her from, I think a driver's license]. Yes.
That's how she looked when you tried to interview her? Yes.
On Feb 6, 2004, did you go to the residence of the mother in an attempt to speak with her?
Phillip Martinez was his partner. Not involved in investigation.
Where was Detective Smith? Thinks he had either been a training officer or was retired.
What was the purpose of going? In order to speak to Mrs. Brown.
When we got to the residence, the defendant's brother came to the door. I introduced myself and he said he would get her. We had brief small talk. We discussed his T shirt, and his military. I was questioning the 87 airborne [from his shirt].
You heard Ian Brown's read in testimony, [where he] described the encounter and heard Lynne Brown's [read in] testimony? Yes.
How did it happen? I had a brief conversation about Ian's millitary service.
Mrs. Brown entered the room and I told her I wanted to ask a few questions about her granddaughter and son, and Mrs. Brown actually said that she didn't want to speak without an attorney present.
Did she start crying at some point? No.
Did you or your partner ever say anything where you thought the defendant was innocent? No.
Did you or your partner ever say anything where you wanted to clear him or get the defendant out of jail? No.
Did you ask her any questions at all? No there were no questions made of Lynne Brown.
Were you asked to leave? No. Once we knew they wouldn't talk to us, we left.
Did speak to Defendant's attorney? Yes. Did you arrange a meeting to speak with Lynne Brown? He [the attorney] felt that it was a good idea, however, the interview was never arranged and never came to fruition.
Interviewed Terry Hope. Did you speak to Terry Hope? Yes.
Is that how Mr. Hope appeared when you interviewed him? [photo of Terry Hope, from I believe, a driver's license.] Yes.
We you the person or someone else who interviewed him a week later? No.
It was someone else? I only spoke to Mr. Hope on the trail out at Inspiration Point.
Only spoke to Mr. Hope on the trail? Yes.
Describes where he spoke to Terry Hope.
Describe for us how you encountered Mr. Hope.
We had arrived, I believe in preparation for the second checkpoint. I was on top, looking down toward Sacred Cove. I saw some movement in the bushes, when he saw Mr. Hope, there was a naked guy in the bushes.
Mr. Laub asks to approach. The court asks, "What? About the naked guy?"
The jury chuckles over the judge's question.
Sidebar with the judge.
Detective Leslie, after you encountered Mr. Hope at the bush, did you have a discussion with Mr Hope? Yes.
Did you go to that location specifically to speak to him? No.
Did you specifically discuss with Mr. Hope, the incident with Lauren's death? Yes.
Did he tell you he had been in that area on Nov. 8th? Yes, he said he swam in that area regularly. He was a member of the polar club and that's why he was there.
Did Mr. Hope ever tell you, that Lauren was happy or smiling? No.
That Lauren was 10 or 15 feet in front of the man she was with? No.
When was the only time that Mr. Hope described to you the distance between Lauren and the defendant? It was after they had passed Mr. Hope on the trail. It forks one way towards Inspiration Point and another toward [?]. [That] was when Mr. Hope stated the defendant was three feet behind Lauren and was encouraging, pushing with his hands, making contact with her back and pushing her up towards Inspiration Point.
Did he physically demonstrate that motion to you? He did while we were on the trail.
Where did he say the defendant was guiding Lauren? It was on the fork, just past the trees where he was changing.
Did Mr. Hope say that the defendant was guiding Lauren on the trail up to Inspiration Point? Yes.
What, any words that the defendant were saying to Lauren? "This way honey, this way, good girl."
He said it was very impersonal, as if you would speak to a dog.
At that time, there was no railing on that section of the trail to Inspiration Point at all.
Also read that Mr. Hope stated that the grass in that area was somewhat slippery? I do recall hearing that.
Was there slippery grass on the edge of the cliff in 2000? Not on the edge of the cliff.
Was there slipper grass on Inspiration Point? Back near the bottleneck. It was November and starting to die, but it was back on the flat portion.
Did Mr. Hope ever indicate he had been out on Inspiration Point? No.
Did you ever refer to the defendant as a scumbag or a rotten scumbag? No.
Did your partner join you on the interview with Mr. Hope? I believe at the end of the conversation.
Did Mr Hope ever indicate to you, he had trouble seeing the clothing because his eyes were sweating or his eyes couldn't focus? No.
Did you interview Mark Thompson on March 5, 2009? Yes.
Was that in Hawaii? Yes.
[Who was with you?] Detective Sargent Kevin Lloyd was with him. Detective Lloyd was not involved in the investigation, just his partner at the time.
Did Mr. Thompson tell you that information came from the defendant himself? Objection. Vague.
The court asks, "What information?" All the information.
He repeatedly told Detective Leslie all the information came from the defendant himself. He told us he was relaying the information to the best of his recollection that he heard from Mr. Brown.
Did Mr. Thompson indicate to you the defendant had told him that Patty was well off? Yes.
Did Mr. Thompson tell you that the defendant and told him, how Laruen died? Yes.
Did Mr. Thompson say this happened at work, in person, and before anything happened on the news? Yes.
Did Mr. Thompson ever indicate to you, that the defendant looked forward to doing things with their daughter's together? No.
Mr. Thompson said that Mr. Brown and Lauren we hiking in the Palisades area, which was close to where Mr. Brown lived. It was an area where they often [hiked?]. He [Brown to witness] spoke of Inspiration Point as being their favorite place.
Did Mr. Thompson say he know where Inspiration Point was? I believe he did.
What did Mr. Thompson tell you the defendant told him face to face? He said there was an area on the trail that was steep and close to the rocks or cliff, the defendant would normally help Lauren [up] as it was steep. He would help hold her up. He indicated that he was told by Mr. Brown, [that] when he turned around when he tried to reach for Lauren, he said that a foot was mile and things were set in motion and she fell. He said he was kind of dazed and out of it and walked to the road where he saw a woman in a minivan, who he said was the person who called 911.
Did the defendant tell Mr. Thompson this was a tight section on the hike and he was reaching to help Lauren when she fell? Yes.
Did Mr. Thompson ever indicate that the defendant ever told him that she was on the top of Inspiration Point and she was running around throwing rocks and fell? [No.]
More questions about facts about if Mr. Thompson ever said that Brown talked about calling 911, [traveling down] to the nude beach, or taking his clothes off before going in to get Lauren? Mr. Thompson did not.
Did Mr. Thompson ever tell you about Mr. Brown saying Sarah could run him over or hunt him down? He did tell me that, yes.
Interview with Mr. Dietzler.
Yes I did interview him at his residence. His partner was with him, Detective Danny Smith.
Prior to going to interview Mr. Dietler, were you aware that they were friends? We knew that they werr co-owners of a boat and they were friends.
Did it appear to you as the interview progressed that Mr. Brown and Mr. Deitlser were close? Yes.
Did you or your partner ever tell this person that appeared to be a close friend that you were going to railroad the defendant? No Or that you were going to put him away or convict him of killing his daughter? No.
Questions about whether he or his partner were "going rogue."
Did Mr. Deitzler ever ask you to read his resume? No he did not.
In any case, do you ever tell them your personal feelings about a defendant? No I do not.
Why? Well, several reasons. it doesn't do any good, and it could sway their opinion. It's not professional and it's immaterial what I think about anyone in any case.
Did you prepare a report of his interview with Mr. Deitzler? Yes. You didn't just make it up? No.
Did you put in that report what was good or what was bad about the defendant? Yes.
Did you just read Mr. Deitzler's letter and put that into your report? There was no website at that time he wrote the report.
When did Mr. Deitzler say he met Lauren? Christmas 1999 and one prior time at the grandmothers.
He believe's he [Dietzler?] said that the defendant brought her to his house.
Did he tell you how he found out that Lauren was dead? During a phone conversation with Mr. Brown.
[Question about that conversation.] Mr. Deitzler said he had spoken in the phone with Mr. Brown talking about the boat and other topics and Mr. Dietzler thought he [Brown] was acting weird. Then the defendant asked Mr. Deitzler if he had heard about what happened.
Did Mr. Deitzler tell you that the child support payments were a hit on his salary? Yes he did.
[Did] Mr. Deitzler say that the defendant [and his?] mother had a falling out over painting the mothers house? Yes.
More questions about Mr. Deitzler and what he said in the interview.
Mr. Dietzler said that he had talked to the defendant's wife on [miss the day.]
Court is ending for today at 2:45 pm. Detective Leslie's testimony is not finished yet.
The jury files out. Sarah got up quickly and left right before the jury left.
That's it for today.
The court then goes back on the record about Brown's right to not testify.
You've exercising your constitutional rights not to testify in this matter? Brown answers, "Yes your honor."
Your doing so [solely] and freely? "Yes your honor."
And that's it.
I believe court continues tomorrow at 9:30 AM