Wednesday, April 29, 2015

Cameron Brown 3rd Trial, Day 23 - Defense Testimony Continues

Lauren Sarene Key, 4, died November 8, 2000.
Copyright© Sarah Key-Marer, all rights reserved.

UPDATE 5/3 7:00 AM edited for spelling and clarity
UPDATE 7:30 PM edited for spelling, readability and accuracy
Wednesday, April 29, 2015
9:28 AM

I'm inside Dept. 107. Sarah and her girlfriend are here. DDA Hum and Detective Leslie are here. We are waiting on Mr. Laub.

It's my understanding that we will only have testimony read into the record of two witnesses. We may finish quite early.

9:31 AM
Mr. Laub arrives with a woman. Mr. Laub introduces her to the court as his wife who will read in the testimony of the first witness. She's sharply dressed in a tan suit. I can't tell from here, but I think she has on pearl like earrings. Her haircut reminds me of Judge Deborah Brazil.

There is another case that is called but there is no defendant brought out.

9:35 AM
Brown is brought out. Mr. Laub and DDA Hum are trying to work out the transcript issue.  Judge Lomeli goes on the record and there is a conflict between defense and prosecution about some testimony that is objectionable. Judge Lomeli is reading over the transcript now.

Judge Lomeli asks Laub what is the relevance. Laub states the employment needs to be asked. Judge Lomeli states that he can only get where he worked. DDA Hum states even that, that the individual worked for the Department of Defense, that may not be what he does now.

It appears that the witness testimony they are debating, is Brown's brother. Brown's brother it appears, is in Afghanistan, and can't be here to testify. Mr. Laub tells the court that Mr. Brown still works in that capacity for the Department of Defense and where he is, is Afghanistan.

Mr. Laub calls Ian Brown, Ms. Garrett (sp?) will be reading the testimony of Mr. Brown.

This is from the 2009 proceeding.

The defense investigator couldn't be here until 10 AM and that's why Mr. Laub had his wife come to read this testimony. The witness will be introduced to the jury as Ms. Garrett.

Ms. Garrett will read in the testimony of:

Mr. Laub starts but Mrs. Laub states she doesn't have the page he's referring to. Mr. Hum hands her his copy of the transcript.

What relationship is he? The defendant's brother. The witness is the baby of the family. He is 42 and the defendant is 49. [There are four brothers. The witness states the birth order, but I miss getting it exactly.]

Had the opportunity to see the defendant grow up? Yes. Parent's not divorced? Correct.

What sort of activities as a family you would engage in? From para shooting, fishing, many other outdoor activities.  ... Family actions centered on the outdoors. Many trips to the mountains, mostly physical outdoor activities. [Their] father is an accomplished blue water sailor.

[How would you categorize Mr. Brown?] Well, growing up, I would literally classify him, as the [sportsman before there were] x-sports figures. Anything from ... [The witness gives examples of the difficult, physical things Brown would take on.] Cam would tell the witness: I went mountain biking and I stayed in two different cabins. [There is much more detail that I miss.] "Just incredible stuff," the witness states

Gives another example of an event where they were on a vacation and they were driving up a really tall mountain. Brown pointed out a cross to the witness, high up on the peak. Brown told the witness that the cross was a memorial to three hikers that had died. Brown told Ian that he hiked up that mountain. Ian was amazed. He couldn't figure out how he got up there, there was no road. To Ian, this was normal for Cam.

Would you say he was someone who was money oriented? No.  More explanation as to how Cam would travel, the minimal equipment he would use, and that his physical possessions were not glamor or high end possessions.

Has not been with Cameron for a long time.

Was he someone who would push the envelope? Yes. His envelope is not anyone else's envelope. So physically, he is in excellent shape and keeps himself that way.

There are four brothers? Yes. You're familiar who Lauren is? [Yes.] Did anyone [of the Brown brothers] have children at that time? No. There were no nieces or nephews? None of us had children at that point.

Describes the event where he met Detective Leslie. It was at his mothers house. He and his mother were there.  They saw someone walking around outside the house. My mother said, Ian, someone is outside.

Mr. Brown, did they eventually come to the door? They did come to the door and my mother came to the door actually.  ... [Detective Leslie came inside.] Later Detective Leslie's partner came in as well.

Did you sit down and have small talk? Yes. I was wearing a [military] shirt that Detective Leslie commented on.  I asked Detective Leslie if he had been in the military. [It was] banter.

Did he say something to you that you recall today? We would like to get some information about Cameron.  ... We sat down and Detective Leslie sat down, and he said: I know your brother, and I know your brother is innocent.  [They said they wanted] to either get more information to clear this thing up or to at least get him out of jail. ... So, I was [?] elated that someone would clear this thing up. [That here was someone who would help.]

Did you know that Detective Leslie was the investigating officer? No.

The witness is asked what else happened. [They started off, and then] there were a few questions that I thought were not what they said they were meaning to do, ... [So I said to them] lets format these questions, and put these towards our attorney, so they can be put forward in a proper way. [So an attorney could go over them to see which questions were appropriate so that nothing would be misconstrued.]

And this is what you put toward the detectives? Yes.

Did they stay [after that or did you] tell them to leave? I believe they asked one more question.

Then the detectives were asked to leave.

Direct ends and cross examination begins.

DDA Hum reads his part.

Good afternoon sir. Obviously you love your brother very much? Yes.

You'd like to help him out if you could? Yes.

Have you visited him in jail? Well it's hard. ... [I believe he explains how it's difficult to arrange the time.] He's visited him close to 20-25 times. He's only allowed a visitor once a week. Some times he wasn't even able to get in to see him.

So 20-25 times you've made an attempt to see your brother? Tried about 30 times.

You testified previously, that you testified that you claimed that Detective Leslie had said that he knew his brother was innocent.

Why didn't you ask Detective Leslie at that time, [I miss the rest of the question, but it was a challenge question, something to the effect of, why didn't you ask Detective Leslie: "If he thought Brown was innocent, why was Brown was still in jail?"].

DDA Hum asked the witness if the defendant had various items?

[Did he, at one time] Had a deuce and a half military truck? [Yes.]

Had a sailboat? [Yes.] He has had more than one sailboat.

He had a motorcycle? [Yes.]

Surfboards? Yes.

He had some items that could be referred to as toys? Absolutely.

Questions about what Cam told him about his climbing abilities.

And Cam was in very good shape?[Miss answer]

Do you know he was still in good shape and still did hiking and other activities? [Yes.]

Cannot say if his brother hiked in 1999, 2000, 2002.

How often did you met Lauren? I actually never met her.

Did you also have a lawyer at that time? You mean as far as this case, or a lawyer in general, no.

DDA Hum peppered the witness with many questions about who had the attorney, and did that make any sense that they needed to pass questions by an attorney to ensure that nothing was misconstrued.

I knew that Cameron had retained an attorney, and that some information had been recorded erroneously.... to have an attorney say which questions were appropriate and which ones were not, essentially they would be given to an attorney.

If the detectives wanted to misconstrue something, they wouldn't even have to meet with you would they?  Well, I don't think that Mr. Leslie [would?] misconstrue anything, but someone else in the DA's office might.

Over and over again as to why he was worried that someone would misconstrue something, then why would you think that you needed a lawyer in the first place? Because the information that I could provide was minimal.

[There's more.  The reading is going too fast. I cannot keep up.]

If you say that the information is minimal, and that you weren't concern that Detective Leslie wasn't going to misconstrue something, then why would you need an attorney?  The witness thought that it was more appropriate that these questions be presented to an attorney.

There was quite a bit of back and forth between DDA Hum and the witness about the reasons why he felt he needed an attorney, and who he felt would misconstrue his answers.

Cross ends and redirect begins.

On redirect, there are questions about the small talk that occurred and what Detective Leslie said, about believing Brown was innocent.  They initially started to ask questions.

The questions were more posed to my mother. My mother was in a highly emotional state.

Was there a point where your mother started breaking down? Yes. It was about Lauren and her death and whether he would be capable of it.

The questions had your mother breaking down crying? There weren't many questions.

You wanted to be helpful to law enforcement? More importantly to help my brother. ... I think that at that point where my mother started crying ... I think it reminded her of the incident.

More questions about whether Detective Leslie wrote down notes while they were there or bring a tape recorder.

Explains that Cam bought a boat by trading in a vehicle that the parents had given him. The boats he had, were not the most expensive boats, brand new that you could by. [They were basically what he could afford.]

Describes the truck that Brown had, and that his other items, were beat up and used.

Talks about the witnesses career and where he's been working for the military. Now questions about his visiting his brother in jail.

And that's it for this witness.

Mr. Laub asks for a sidebar. While the reader was reading in testimony, the private investigator arrived.

10:21 AM
Judge Lomeli, after the side bar, gives the jury 20 minute break. They need to go get exhibits from a prior proceeding to read in the next testimony. They thought they had the exhibits already.

We're going to break, and then I'm not ready when Judge Lomeli goes on the record.

10:36 AM
On the record. This is addressing the proposed testimony Dr. Sigmund for the defense. I want to make sure it's pointed to give guidance to the witness. Previously the witness had done experiments with water rescue dummy's and [gives number of experiments] of children throwing golf balls. Water rescue dummy's have not been evaluated in relation to [human beings], any testimony regarding this issue, would be [irrelevant].

The only reason the golf ball experiments were done, was to develop a departure speed for the dummy. So they are also not relevant.

The only evidence the defense were presenting was to show Lauren's potential interaction with the cliff.  I believe the court basically rules that these tests cannot be presented to the jury. The information is irrelevant.

The court reads in the defense position.

If the dummy is to represent the projectile motion through space, then they would be allowed.

DDA Hum states that they do not. The court states that would be for cross examination.

Mr. Laub state he has no information as to whether or not if anything has been done substantively with these dummies, since 2009, but if he does find any case law that addresses Kelly-Fry, he will notify the court.

The court states that if he can find anything on case law, Kelly-Fry or Dalbert then please let the court know and be here by 8:30 AM on Monday.

So, it's still not clear to me, whether or not the jury will see the water test dummy drops or the throwing of golf balls.

10:51 AM
Mr. Ross will read in the testimony.

Could you tell us where you were at Nov 8, 2000? I was down there at the cove and I was sightseeing.

When you are talking about [the beach] are you meaning Sacred Cove? Yes.

Shows a photo, Defense LL, It's the cliffs there and the path leading down to it.  Sacred Cove.

Is Sacred Cove a beach area between Portuguese Point and Inspiration Point? Yes.

He was there from 10:30 am in the morning until about 5 minutes after 2 pm.

I left at about ten until 2 pm. ... I was going up a path, that leads a way out of it.

Can you see the path on the photo?

Can you draw a dotted line on the path? I think I could.

Laub points out on the exhibit the marks the witness made [in 2009].

When you were going on that trail, did you observe anyone? Yes. I saw a tall thin male and a little girl. I was on the trail going up, when I noticed them.

MM. exhibit. Another photo of the side of the cliff.

Is this where you made some markings at a prior proceedings? ... Can you point to now, where you first observed the two individuals?

This is so confusing. For the benefit of the jury, Mr. Laub points to where the witness originally marked. I can't see it on the photo.

These were markings that were previously made on this photographs? Yes.

Those markings are in red color? Yes. And the one you just added is in blue, correct? Yes.

Mr. Laub is not sure about where the markings are. They were written over each other, so it's hard to tell which is which.

Point first, where were the two individuals where you first saw them. [Mr. Laub points to an area on the photo, that's near the top of the cliff.]

Can you describe the area where you first observed them? It was kind of a little bluff. It was cloudy, so that's how I could see them. He was just standing there, and she was running back and forth to this bluff, and she was running back and forth throwing rocks. She was doing that for about a minute.

You could see her running back and forth?

Many questions about whether or not he saw the little girl crying or running or screaming. He did not see or hear her crying or running or screaming.

He got to where he got his bike packed, and then he heard a voice say, "This way, this way honey." And then I heard him say, "That a girl."

What did you see when you looked up? Her going back toward him. About four feet.

She was coming back to the trail? Yes.

How close to you were they? About 15 or 20 feet.

Could you see the expression on the little girls face? Happy.  Could you see the expression on Mr. Brown's face. He was just standing there, looking straight ahead, down at the path.

He saw them twice. He saw them 20 to 30 seconds at that point.

Did she sit down, did she cry or scream? No.

Did you see the male forcing her to hear anything? No.

Did you hear anything the male said to her? Just what I already told you. "This way honey, this way; that a girl." 

And who was ahead? She was.

And she was closer to Inspiration Point? Yes.

Saw them in the second spot. Marks a 2 on that spot. The witnesses did not mark the 2 in the right spot. He marked it where he saw them the first time. There is dialog by the court as to the error and how to make the correction, by putting a 2A in the correct spot.

Mr. Laub states: For the benefit of the court and counsel, and the jury, there appears to be a 2 A right where I am now pointing.

Is this the circle that I'm pointing at and putting it on the top? Right at the initials.

And how would you describe that area? Bushy, some trees and rough. The path is rough. You can slip and slide a little bit toward the trees.

And that is the place where you saw the little girl throwing rocks? No. That was the place where she was coming back? Yes.

Shown photos by the investigators? Yes.

He identified the individuals as the ones he had seen on that day? Yes.

He continued to pack his bike. The individual turned around to look at him. Now the witness is at a different point [on his journey].

The little girl was walking ahead of the individual? 10 or 15 feet. She was walking. Was she walking in a normal pace? Yes.

The man was about 15 feet from the witness.

Could not see the little girl sitting down and not moving. Did not see the male force her along. Did not see the little girls face since she was walking [away?].  This last time, he only saw them about five seconds.

He continued walking up and continued to see the two individuals again. A third location. Not certain where the first two locations were, since he was getting near the top of the path.

[This is very confusing testimony.]

The third time, that would have been coming up to the narrow strip. That would be the third time. You wouldn't see it on this [exhibit] that would be going [another way].

I see, where you are getting back? I see where he glanced back at me. ... They were near me, at the tree. They had moved away from you? Just a little, about 10 feet down. You wouln't be able to mark it, it's two small of a map.

So the 2nd location is about 10 feet from the third? [Miss answer.]

So it is not confusing, okay, the red circle that you have near the 2A and the 3, is basically the same area you observed the two individuals for the second and third time? Yes.

And where did you see them next? Almost at the top? Where did I see the two? There is a narrow strip near Inspiration Point. ... The real narrow strip that goes out. I'll show you.

More questions as to which direction was on his left or right. There is a pause. I believe Mr. Laub is getting another exhibit from the court clerk.  MM exhibit. This is a photo of the trail right beside Inspiration Point. [I remember being on this trail in 2009.]

That is the fence on MM, do you see it? Ah yes, it looks better here.

Do you see the trail you saw them on? Yes. That you just described? Yes.  Do you have a marking on this exhibit from a prior proceeding? Yes. Do you have an L with a circle where you saw the little girl? Yes.

Will you please put a 4 over the circle where you saw the little girl? Thank you.

The girl was on her hands and feet, crawling up it on her hands and knees, [because it was very difficult in that part].

What was he doing? He was just walking behind her, with his hands [along] his sides.

Did not hear her yelling crying or screaming or stopping or complaining or him yelling at her. Did not see him pulling or pushing her.  Did not observe the little girl crying or screaming or complaining or see her sitting down. Did not see him carrying her, or did you see him forcing her along, or pushing her? No, No, No, No, etc.

One time you saw her and you were able to observe her face, was she smiling? No.

How long would you say, was the time period you observed the two individuals on Nov 8th 2000? The witness first asks: From the very beginning? About 15 minutes.

How would you describe her? Happy and playful and free.

Describe the man? Relaxing calm.

Questions about how he was contacted by Detectives. Asks if he sees the detective in court. He's not sure. The witness was just pointing at Detective Leslie.

Miss questions about what the detectives called Brown. Witness states they called Brown a rotten scumbag. Questions about which detective said it and whether the witness thought the detective who said that had already made up their mind.

Defense MM back on the projector.

And every single location where we have a circle, where you saw the two individuals. So that it's clear to the jury that these are the spots.

More instructions to the witness to circle around the already made circles, where he saw the man and the little girl.

The witness states: They are so close together, it's a little confusing. The defense attorney states, That's alright.

Now going over again, on this exhibit, the four locations where he saw the two individuals.

[I'm not going to transcribe all this.]

One juror appears to be scrunching up their face. Another juror is scooted down in their seat and leaning back. One juror wasn't even looking up at the screen; they were looking down. Mr. Laub is trying to explain all the circles and exhibits for the jury. I think I hear a chuckle from one of the jurors.

The court asks if they [the jurors] are okay.

More questions to the witness about where the second location was and if it was 10 feet from the third location.

Direct ends and cross begins.  DDA Hum reads the questions he asked of this witness in 2009.

Mr. Hope, the defendant's lawyer asked you a series of questions, that you never asked if the little girl was crying, correct? Correct.

The first time, it was about 500 feet? I wasn't paying attention that much.  You couldn't see them that time because they were too far away? Yes.

Second time, they were continuing down the trail. Saw them for about 10 seconds?  They were closer.  Approximately 15 feet.

And you said that they were walking towards, you, or past you? Parallel.

And they walked past him.

Explains how they walked.

The witness explains. There is one thing though. When he said those things though, he was standing still. It wasn't until after that she moved ahead.

This time was approximate 10 seconds. He didn't look at them the entire 10 seconds. The entire time he observed them, was about 2 seconds.

Next time, was looking at their backs, and that's when the man turned around and looked at you? And you couldn't see the little girls face because she was ahead of you? [Yes, yes.]

The third time, or this last time, the two people were approximately 500 feet away again.

So that entire time, he only saw the little girls face for about 2 seconds.

Questions about how he got there. He rode his bike. He parked his car at the fire department and took his bike out and rode his bike to the tree where he left it.

Arrived there about 10:30 am. And stayed there for a couple hours? Yeah, a few hours.

I just went for a swim, ate my lunch and walked around a little.

Left around 1:30 or 1:50 pm.  And how long would you say it took you to hike up to your bike? About 10 minutes.

So at about 2:05 you were at your bike, and you saw that the little girl was on all fours?

[Didn't you tell detectives that, ]At first when you heard the man talk, you first thought that he was talking to a dog? Because that's what it sounded like, not real concerned.

Now questions about the trail, and the direction it goes, and that it was very steep, and that you saw the little girl literally crawling on her hands and knees.

And then the time that the man turned around and looked at you? And did you previously describe that look as a hard look, as if the man was staring at you? [Yes.]

Now questions about when the detectives came out to talk to him. Then possibly another single individual that came to talk to him. DDA Hum asks if Mr Hope talked to the media. [I believe he answers no.] He then identifies Mr. Ross as the investigator who came out to talk to him.

[This is interesting. Mr. Ross, the defense private investigator in 2009, is reading testimony from a witness, who he interviewed, and is being asked about the witnesses interview with Mr. Ross, and other detectives. Surreal.]

Gives the witness, a transcript for the witness to read. It's of the prior proceeding [2006]. At the prior proceeding, he testified that the detectives did not call Brown a scumbag.

Now questions about where the two individuals were, when they were on the bluff, while he was looking into the sun, he states he saw Lauren go to the edge and throw rocks.

He did see information on the TV that night.

He went up to Inspiration Point with investigator Ross before the first proceeding [2006].

He considered himself a hiker. He had been hiking there before, but never up to Inspiration Point.

More cross about whether he told detectives that he saw the man guiding the little girl.

Did you see the man guiding the little girl? Verbally, not touching her. Verbally.

Did you tell detectives that you saw his hands out in front of him, guiding or touching her, guiding her along? No.

Asks the witness to read prior transcript to himself.

Is that what you told the detectives? No. I did not say that he was pushing her. He moved his hand forward like this, but he wasn't touching her at all.

In the detective's report, it states that Terry Hope actually said he saw Brown's hands on her back guiding her. The witness states that he never told that to Detectives.

Now questions about the other location, where Lauren was on her hands and knees.

So that hard rocky trail, she is on her hands and knees and she's struggling to get up the trail, and he was three feet behind her? Yes.

Describes what he remembers Lauren was wearing. Pants, tennis shoes? 

When you first told Detectives, you thought that she was wearing a white party dress, carrying something white, that she was carrying in her hands ...  and red tennis shoes? [Miss answer.]

And that was describing her clothes, just from a few feet away? Right. And not from 500 feet away, looking into the sun? [Miss answer.]

DDA Hum puts up on the clip board, the large photo of Lauren that Brown took. The witness is not sure if this is what the little girl was wearing. The witness now states that his eyes were sweating, and he wasn't looking up close. He was fifteen feet away.

When you first talked to detectives, you didn't say that you eyes were sweating and that you couldn't see very well. [Miss answer.]

So when you were at the top of the cliff and approaching Palos Verdes, and that's the last time you saw the little girl on her hands and knees, and this trail with loose rocks and dirt, and she was struggling to get up? When you saw that, did you think something was wrong there?

I thought they were not dressed right. They seem to be too well dressed and didn't [think that was right].

Cross ends and redirect ends.

Mr. Hope, this steep rocky trail, is that the one that you see up there? Yes.

And you got a circle with an L on it on this photo? Yes.

And is that the location you saw Lauren? Yes.

And this is the steep rocky location that we've been describing? Yes.

Now prior to November 8, had you ever seen Mr. Brown or the little girl? No.

He went to that area about three times a week, for about five years. And at no time had he ever seen these two individuals at this location? No.

More questions about the scumbag comment and if he was lying when he said detectives said that.

Redirect ends and recross beings.

You said that you spoke with detectives about two weeks after it happened, and then you talked about it with another investigator. And with that investigator, you said that you thought it was an accident because the grass was really slippery and that the little girl could have slipped? [Yes.]

And the first time you were on Inspiration Point was in 2006? Yes.

Photo of Brown is put up. Did he look like this? No.

What was the man wearing? He had some kind of blue nylon jacket on, and gray pants, and leather shoes. And the little girl looked like she was going to church.

Recross ends and redirect begins.

More questions about if he was speculating on what the little girl was wearing and if he was certain. I miss most of this questioning.

Now the witness is not sure what the little girl was wearing. It could have been a dress. The defense attorney asks the witness if he's speculating right now as to what she was wearing and the tennis shoes.

And that's all I got of this read-in testimony.  I got to hand it to Judge Lomeli's court reporter, if she got all that. It was read so fast, I missed quite a bit of it.

Court is dark the rest of the week until Monday morning at 9:30 AM. If the defense has anything to argue to the court regarding their expert witness, he is to be there by 8:30 AM.

Back during the Lazarus trial, the preliminary hearing testimony of criminalist Lloyd Mahaney was read into the record. That was a much slower read than this testimony today.

Speaking of the Lazarus trial, when I left court on Tuesday, I saw "the eagle" Judge Robert Perry walking east on Temple Street, right in front of the criminal court building. He was speaking with a younger woman who was walking with him. I almost didn't recognize him. I've only seen less than a handful of judges on the street, and it was nice to see him.

Tuesday, April 28, 2015

Cameron Brown 3rd Trial, Day 22 - Prosecution Case Continues

Lauren Sarene Key, 4, died November 8, 2000.
Copyright© Sarah Key-Marer, all rights reserved.

UPDATE 5/1 12:45 PM final edit for spelling, readability, accuracy
Note: I hope to have this week's entries fully edited by next Monday. Sprocket

Tuesday, April 28, 2015
8:24 AM
I'm on the Red Line train. If all goes well, I should make it into the courtroom by 9:15 AM.

8:57 AM
Best laid plans. The train we were on was having propulsion problems. We had to exit at Hollywood & Vine and wait for the next train. Most cars were already full when a packed train had to get on the next one. I was lucky. The train stopped at the next stop and a seated woman directly in front of me got off. I was able to get a seat so I could continue editing Day 19's entry.

9:30 AM
When I first arrive Mr. Laub's investigator and a witness are in the ante chamber having a discussion.

With regard from Dr. Sigmund yesterday, if they tried to impeach Dr. Hayes, directly, the people may not have been privy to the information. But since the defense wanted to present this information through Dr. Sigmund, the prosecution contends that they would have been privy to this information via discovery.  There's more beyond just this.

The court asks Mr. Laub what witnesses he has for this morning. Laub outlines the witnesses he has.

The court asks Brown directly if he wants to go to the site visit. Brown does. The court will rule whether or not Brown will be allowed to go to the edge of Inspiration Point.

I believe a subpoena needs to served on a witness who apparently doesn't show.

9:39 AM
The jury enters and Judge Lomeli interrupts the private investigator to let them know, "jury walking."

The defense calls their first witness.

1. JOHN DIETZLER (aka) Jack

He currently lives in Utah and work for the federal government. Advises on intercontinental ballistic missiles.  He used to surf and met Brown on the beach near his grandmother's house, where the witness lived.  That was in the early 90's. We would go surfing together. Developed a friendship over the years.

 He eventually had a family and they would socialize. Take the kids out to eat. Get together once in a while.  Would work on cars with him. Dietzler testifies: One time I helped him bring an army truck back from Colorado. Outdoor activities. We're very much into the outdoors. We owned a boat together.

Mr Laub asks about this boat: I had never owned a boat. Cam had owned a boat in the past. Said there was a good deal on a boat. We bought that together. We ended up sailing together. My BIL ended up in that partnership as well.

This boat that you went in on, was this a brand new boat? No. It cost $3,000.00. It was down in an older marina. We were comfortable in the water. Not worried about having fancy stuff. I'm an aerospace engineer.

DDA Hum objects at this point.

He met Brown's daughter Lauren.

Approximately how many times did you spend in her company? About ten. Will you describe for us the kinds of occasions? There would be by happenstance, one time I remember she was at the grandmother's house when I stopped by to surf. One time when I moved away from the beach and Cam brought her over to visit. I have a son who was approximately the same age. One time going out to a Mexican food restaurant to eat. Those type of occasions.

Going to show you some photographs.

I've got a series of photographs two page, marked V.

When these photographs are shown, what I'm going to ask you to do is identify people in the photos.

While we're waiting, when you were with Mr. Brown and his daughter Lauren, how did Mr. Brown relate with Lauren when you were with him? It was a very loving relationship. Cam was very proud. Objection to proud.

You said he was proud? I believe DDA Hum states: That answer was stricken.

Was there anything that Mr. Brown, where he related with Lauren, that made you feel that he was proud? He was always happy. This was great thing that came into Cam's life. Objection! Sustained. Answer stricken.

He loved his daughter. Objection. Speculation. Stricken.

What feelings did he express in your presence? Pride. Love. How about Lauren, how did she respond? Very happy, she was a normal kid running around with my kids, being around her dad. It was all very fun.

Photo 1 of Lauren with her Dad. Yes, That's Lauren with here dad.

Photo 2. Photo of Lauren by herself.

Photo 3
[I note that these are photos of Cameron with Lauren that have appeared on Brown's brother-in-law's website.]

Can you tell what's going on in this picture? He seems to be pointing something out to Lauren.

Photo 4 of Lauren.
Photo 5 of Lauren. This photo was on the brother-in-law's web site. Witness is not sure where this was.

More photos of Cameron and Lauren that were on the brother-in-law's website.

Another photo of Lauren with dolls. [I note that, most of these photos are all taken at the same location, at the same event.]

The witness is asked if he knows anything about the doll. He does remember her playing with a doll at one time. That doll could have been one that my girlfriend gave to her at the time. I'm not sure.

More photos from the same, single event. Photos of Cameron and Lauren.  More photos from the same event. Brown is wearing the same shirt. Lauren wearing the same dress.

When you were with your family with Cameron and Lauren, on a number of occasions? Yes. Approximately 10.

When you were with him, were there times that you felt he wasn't being protective enough? No. [The witness starts to elaborate.] Objection no answer pending after no. Sustained.

Were there times that you were concerned about him letting Lauren run around? No.

Did you ever see Lauren act as if she was afraid of Mr. Brown? No.

How would you describe Mr. Brown's personality? Was he someone that reacted too intensely, or calmly? Calmly.

How would this show itself? I've never noticed him being upset, angry. Life was pretty smooth. He had an easy going personality. Not intense at all. Laid back. Kind of a lifestyle we led, on the beach.

Do you know anything about his relationship with his grandmother? He seemed to be very close. He would bring her to her senior meetings. Would help paint her house. He would visitiher. He had a close relationship with her.

And he would help take care of her? She had senior meetings close to my home. ... He would pick her up and wait until she finished .... then go back and pick her up.

As far as gifts go, are you aware of any gifts that Mr. Brown gave Lauren? No, I don't remember.

Was there something that, was there a wet suit from your son? Yes. I do remember that. My son had a small wet suit and he quickly outgrew that. Lauren wanted that and he gave that to her.

And you were interviewed at some point by Sheriff's detectives? Yes I was. Do you remember approximately when that was? No I don't. Do you remember where that was? It was in my living room on my couch.

Someone came to your door? Two detectives were investigating the case.

Do you recognize anyone here in the case? No I don't?

Why were they there? The said they were there to investigate the case so I invited them in and they started talking.

At one point, they came right out and said that they were going to take him down, and railroad him and make sure he was [?] for killing his daughter.  I told them, you're not here to do a good job.

The detectives didn't use words like railroad did they? Did they actually use that specific word? Could have been. It could have been really intense at one point. I was like, wow. You're not the kind of police officers that I would expect. You're just here, to put Cam away, for killing his daughter.

They went from detectives I invited into my home to police officers that [go for broke?].  You saw the report they wrote about your statement? I believe that one of the trials... [I believe the witness is interrupted and Mr. Laub corrects him.]

Proceedings. Proceedings. [The report], it was completely inaccurate. This was not what I portrayed with the officers. I said this was a tragic accident.

There is an objection and an answer is stricken.

When you talk about what happened to Lauren, you're not saying you know what happened? I wasn't there.

But are you expressing your feelings? Objection. Irrelevant. Sustained.

DDA Hum speaks to Mr. Laub at almost a whisper. The court reporter is not typing. It's not being written down.

I'd like to have this two page document marked next in order. It's a letter from Jack Deitzler.

Could you take a look at this and tell me what this is? This is a letter I wrote in support of Cam when he was going through these trials.

Continually uses the word "trials" when he was instructed not to.

In this letter of support, did you talk about Mr. Brown's relationship with his family and daughter? Yes I did. It was trying to portray what Cam was to his daughter and what type of relationship they had. Did you also talk about his grandmother? I can't remember. I'd have to read it again.

He's given his letter to read.

Brown leans in to speak to his private investigator.

For the record, the witness was just reviewing what has been marked as defense W.

Would you say that Mr. Brown was somebody in the years that you knew him, was driven by a desire for money? Not at all. Quite the opposite. He was happy with his lifestyle.

Objection! Sustained. Answer is No. The rest stricken.

How would this show itself? He never talked about it. He was always busy. He had hobbies. He moved right into being a father. Never worried about making a lot of money.

Mr. Deitzler, you're a friend of Mr. Brown, you consider yourself? Yes I do.  Would it cause you to fly out here from Utah to lie about Mr. Brown? No I would never do that. Yes, it is the type of friendship that would cause me to fly out and support Cam.

Do you mean that you want to report the facts you know or the facts that [miss rest of answer]. Only the facts I know.

Direct ends and cross begins.

Did you pay for your ticket? The defense paid.

And in fact you here to help out your friend, the defendant? Yes.
You've testified previously? Yes. Two times?

I asked you in 2006, if you were here to help out the defendant, and you said Yes, I am. [Miss answer.]

Now Mr. Dietzler I ask you this. The defense attorney asked you if you had read the statement the detectives wrote. I remember reading it, and it didn't portray what I said to them.

So your testimony is that they summarized their interview with you and they made all that up? It didn't appear to be an accurate or [the] exact status what happened in my house.

Your testimony is, you read the statement, and the detectives made up their report?

On Jan 21, 2001, investigators interviewed Mr. John Dietzler. Did they make that up? No.

He's known as Jack.

DDA Hum reads back the beginning lines of the report one by one and asks him if they made those statements up.  The witness said no.

You said positive things about the defendant? Yes.

They said that they're going to railroad this guy? Yeah.

Does that make sense to you? You're a smart guy... does this make sense to you? No. It didn't.

In fact you testified to us, "These guys were dangerous, they had gone rogue." Did you ever testify previously under oath, that these guys had gone rogue? I don't know.

Have you read your testimony from prior proceedings Mr. Dietzler? Yes.

Do you have it with you? [No.] When was the last time you read it? Last week.

You said that Lauren wanted this wet suit? I didn't say that, I said that we gave it to her, she needed one.

[I'm not sure who says this, the witness of DDA Hum.] I may have misheard you.

Mr. Dietzler, did you see Lauren using this wet suit? I can't recall. Did you see her swimming in the ocean? I can't recall precisely? We spent a lot of time at the beach.

So if you saw Lauren swimming that's not something that you would remember? No, that's not something I would remember.

I know you told the defendants lawyer [?you spoke to detectives?], would it be relatively a short period after Lauren died? Was it a few weeks, a few years? I don't remember.

Certainly after Lauren died? Doesn't remember when it was.

Did you testify previously, that when you spoke with detectives, it was within a few months of Lauren's death? It's possible, I guess it's been over ten years. It's definitely over ten years.

When you spoke with detectives, would it be accurate to say that, the events were fresher in your mind than they are today? Some are easier to recall.

Would it refresh your memory that you met Lauren at Christmas in 1999? I don't remember. There were some issues as to when I met Lauren.

Did you tell detectives you met Lauren in Christmas of 1999, and on one occasion, when Cameron and Patty brought Lauren to your residence?  I don't remember.

You said you possibly also met Lauren on one occasion, when you went surfing at grandmother's residence? [Miss answer.]

Sir,  is it your testimony today that you don't remember meeting Lauren in December 1999, but today you don't remember if you did? Everything that transpired with [the] detectives, there a question in my mind, there's a question that anything I said, is true.

So you're saying that maybe they just made that up, is that your testimony? I don't recall. It's possible I may have said something like that.

Well, you did write in your letter, you were able to spend one Christmas and a few dinners with Lauren? Yeah.

It's right there in the letter. I don't know if I told the detecitves that.

So you were telling the truth in your letter? Yes.

Did you tell detectives that you had seen Lauren at Christmas? I don't know. It's as if they read the letter.

You said you were able to spend one Christmas and several dinners with Lauren? Yes.

[Was Lauren's mother, Sarah there?] I can tell you right now, I'd never met Sarah.So your testimony is you never met Sarah, Lauren's mother? [No.]

So she would not have been at this Christmas, where you said you met Lauren. I can say that [I've never met Sarah.]

Are you aware, that the defendant never got unsupervised visits with Lauren until Feb 2000? I wasn't aware.

So when you spoke to detectives, you were not aware that the defendant did not get unsupervised visits until Feb 2000?. No. And when you wrote the letter, you didn't know about the supervised visits? No.

And by Christmas, 2000, Lauren was dead? Well, you wouldn't lie about that.

I appreciate what you're getting at here. My interaction with Lauren was 10 times max. I saw how Cam and her interacted. I know that there was a time when we opened gifts in my living room in my home. There were a lot of kids around. It was a family event. I recall it as being Christmas or some holiday or some reason to celebrate with Lauren.

You didn't write in your letter you were about to spend Christmas or some Holiday with Lauren? No, I just read it.

You now know, that couldn't be true? I can't recall, is that the only time that uh, ... you got to go back and see.

Judge Lomeli: Let's move on.

DDA Hum is asking questions very fast.

Now Mr. Dietzler, you testified that the defendant was not someone, in your opinion, that cared much about money? Did you ever tell detectives that the defendant told you that the child support was a hit on his salary?  Now, that's something that, they're making something up.

I did not say that to detectives. I would never say that to detectives. I wouldn't make something like that up.

Were you aware that the defendant signed [a statement] under penalty of perjury, that he couldn't afford the child support payments? No I was not.  ....

Does that sound to you like someone who wasn't concerned about money? No, that sounds like someone who was concerned about money.

Did the defendant ever tell you he and his wife Patty wanted to have kids? That's not something that me and Cam would ever discuss. Maybe some ...

Judge Lomeli: That answer's no? No.

Page 3053 lines 10-12. When you testified previously 2006, you were under oath? Yes.

You were asked these questions by me? Yes.

DDA Hum reads a prior question he was asked in 2006, something about whether or not the defendant and Patty ever wanted kids?

Laub objects very loudly. Not impeachment. May we approach? Side bar.

I believe my question was, did you testify under oath, did the defedant and his wife Patty, ever tell you they wanted to have kids? Possibly, it's something they [?].

Now when the judge asked, if the defendant ever tell you he wanted to have kids, you said "No, that's not something we would ever talk about." 

At first the witness tries to say that his answer in 2006 and his answer today are the same. There is objection from Mr. Laub.

Does the answer, No, and Possibly, mean the same thing to you? No, They're not the same.

Do you recall, how you found out that Lauren died? You know, right now, to ask me to remember, not reading transcripts, no. However, I read the transcripts, and it jogged my memory. I remember seeing it on the news that a young child had fallen from the cliff.

Sometime later, I received a call from Cam, and he was audibly upset. I asked what's wrong Cam, and he started telling me how Lauren died.

Did you tell detectives, that you found out a few days later from the defendant? [Miss answer.]

Well, that wasn't a lie was it? [Referencing where the witness testified the detectives made everything up.]

Did you talk to detectives about that, you had a conversation about other things, about the boat?  That's one of those other things.

Did you speak about other topics before the defendant brought up Laurens death? No.

Did you tell detectives that you thought the defendant was acting a little weird, and then he asked you if you'd seen the news about the death, and then you talked about it? [Miss answer.]

Did you tell detectives that you talked about the boat and other topics, and then Cam asked you if you'd seen the news about the death and that Cam told you about Lauren? I don't recall that. ... I don't remember if that happened.

Well, when you spoke to detectives, you were telling the truth? Well that's how I am all the time.

You don't remember whether you told them about the phone conversation, but if you had said that, you would have been telling them the truth? If I had, I talked to Cam, I could tell something was wrong and then Cam telling me that [she? Lauren?] had died.

Do you know a guy named Scott Simonson? Yeah, I remember there was someone on the docks [by that name].

You said that you could tell that Cam was audibly upset, and that it was a very gray conversation? Yes.

When you spoke to the defendant about Lauren on the phone, he never said anything like "It's a tragedy, but I've got to move on with my life?" He didn't say anything like that did he? It was a huge event, that's not something that would have transpired. That's not normal.

DDA Hum: I certainly would agree with you on that.

Did he tell you anything like that? No.  [This statement was repeated to the witness.]

And his first words to you weren't "Hey, what's up?" Sounds like you're being disrespectful.

Mr. Deitzler, you talked to us about the defendant and his relationship with his grandmother, did you tell the detectives he had a falling out with his mother about not finish painting his grandmother's hosue? I don't remember. I just remember this whole thing about them taking down Brown.

[Do you know] whether he finished the house painting? I don't recall that either.

Did you tell detectives that he had a falling out with his mother, about not finishing the painting of his grandmothers house? No, I don't recall that.

10:37 AM
Mr. Deitzler, when you testified in 2009, you testified under oath? Yes. And you were asked about this prior falling out? Yes.

I asked you this question. DDA Hum reads the question that was asked in 2009.

Did you tell the detectives, that, you know, that's a possibility, it's just normal ups and downs of family relationships? [Miss answer.]

Were you asked that question and did you give that answer? During the trial, yes.

So, in 2009, you said it was a possibility, but today, you don't recall that? Yes.

In 2009, you were telling the truth? Yes. And testifying now, you're telling the truth? Yes.

Just to make sure we're complete, when you tesitifed in 2006, [page, line] under oath, you were also asked that question, correct? If it's in the transcript, yes.

Did you also tell the detectives, prior to getting married that the defendant had a falling out with his mother? His answer: No.

Another objection by Mr. Laub.

You've spoken previously, with the defendant's wife, Patty? Yes.

Did the detectives call you and tell you they were going to talk to you or did they just show up at your door? They just showed up at my door.

How often would you say that you spoke to the defendat's wife? Infrequently. ... You know, I don't remember.

Did you talk with the defendant's wife, the morning of the interview with detectives, before they came out? I don't remember.

Did you tell detectives, that you spoke to Patty earlier that morning, and that she spoke to you about the road block, and the search warrants? I don't remember.

Now, Mr. Deitzler, you said, in a significant amount of your testimony, how the defendant had this loving relationship with Lauren? Yes. Were you aware Mr. Deitlzer, that he said to his coworker, that he wanted to get rid of Lauren? You can say all you want, I don't know if what you're saying is even true.

Do you think I'm lying to you?

I believe Mr. Laub objects but I miss the ruling.

Were you aware that a coworker of the defendant, were you aware that the defendant stated to a coworker, that he wanted to get rid of Lauren?

Laub objects. Approach. [I believe I hear Laub argue at side bar that the word Lauren was not used.]

DDA Hum re-asks the question, using the word "kid." Were you aware of that? No.

If you knew that would it still be your opinion, that he had a loving relationship with Lauren? No.

Were you aware that the defendant said to Scott, [repeats same statement about moving on with his life] would it sill be your opinion, that the defendant had a loving relationship? No.

Were you aware, that he told Lauren, that he was going to put her mother away, for stealing his money? The witness states he is uncomfortable with this.

The witness is  that it doesn't matter.

The witness then states he would not think they had a loving relationship.

Were you aware, that there were times that he would grab her arm, and pulling her away? You know, you're asking about things that could be completely made up.

The judge asks, Are you aware? Well, not based on. You're twisting things here.

Mr. Deitzler, I asked you this question [about the coworker].

I believe the witness becomes even more uncomfortable with this question. Judge Lomeli intervenes.  The judge explains to character witnesses, about what this cross examination is like. The judge explains that he knows this isn't comfortable, but this is the process.

After hearing this from the judge the witness agrees, that's not typical of a loving relationship.

So just putting all these things together, that a defendant had stated to a coworker about getting rid of the kid, a few days after Lauren died, [the statement to Scott Simonson about moving on with his life' if you were aware, that the defendant told Lauren he was going to put her mother away, ... If you were aware of when he pulled Lauren by her arm and she was crying... would you still consider that a loving relationship? It depends. Possibly. I think that's a loving relationship. It's like... [You're trying to twist things?]

If I asked you one of those factors, if you were aware that the defendant said to a coworker, Wouldn't it be nice to get rid of the kid. You said no? The witness asks: What do you mean by get rid of the kid? You're implying murder.

[There is another question and the witness answers:] Mr. Hum, you're twisting things. What exactly do you mean by getting rid of?

Mr. Deitzler, I get to ask the question.

Even after telling you all those facts, would you still believe the defendant had a loving relationship with his family? Yeah.

Cross ends and redirect begins. 

You're here to talk about your experience with Mr. Brown? Yes.

When discussing your relationship with Mr. Brown ... Objection. Sustained.

Do you have any reason to believe, about all these accusations do you believe these are true? Objection sustained.

Do you have any reason to believe that Mr. Brown talked with a coworker in a suspicious way, Objection. Sustained.

I believe, around this point, there is a request for sidebar, and the morning break is taken. The jury is excused.

Judge. What he believes, what Mr. Brown said to a coworker, is irrelevant.

Laub argues. Your honor, Mr. Hum asked the witness a series of questions, if you knew this, if you knew that, what he was asking for, what this witness would feel if those things were true. The witness was clearly uncomfortable, because the witness clearly didn't believe they were true.

The jury already has seen him throwing things back, he's not accusing. The reason is, why he is having a difficult time because if his experience with his daughter, it doesn't make sense to him.

DDA Hum states, this is classic cross examination. It doesn't matter if he believes them, it doesn't matter if I'm making things up. It goes to the basis and tests the witnesses basis for his opinion. The question is simply, would these factors, change your opinion.

Laub argues that this is argument. Laub states that the witness state of mind should be considered.  What the jury is experiencing ... that this is an evasive witness, or the jury can hear another explanation.

The judge states this  is classic cross examination of a witness.  The court goes into greater detail as to why this is classic cross examination.

Laub then states, he should at least be able to ask him, that the things are inconsistent. Court states, that's irrelevant.  The court states, that just because he's struggling up there doesn't mean you get to rescue him.

To me, it's a classic attempt, to show why he's testifying the way he is as a state of mind. Judge states that he's already committed himself to his state of mind. It is what it is. This is nothing more than to have the witness comment on the veracity of other witnesses.

Laub continues to argue his point. If you knew the defendant would make this entire courtroom to disappear, would you still believe he's a human being, then this witness, goes, is this some type of trick. What the prosecution is presenting here, is as ridiculous as what the prosecution is presenting here.

Judge Lomeli states Laub's analogy is extreme. What I think is happening up there is your witness is stumbling and you're trying to come to his rescue, and that's what your job is. But you're not going to do that, by asking irrelevant questions.

Laub states, I'm not going to assume these facts are true.

Laub had more discussion with the court and then he's done. The judge states that they will be in recess another five minutes to give his staff a break.
11:14 AM

The jury enters.

Redirect examination continues.

You were questioned by the prosecutor at length whether or not you had said something to detectives whether he had a falling out with his grandmother about finish painting his grandmother's house.

I'd like to read a little further and see if this is what you testified to in prior proceedings.  [Page, line.]

Question okay, you said you were called, you said there was a defendant painting a house. He was trying to find time to paint the house, but he was very close to his mother and grandmother.  Did you tell detectives about painting the house? Yeah, yeah... I also told them about taking his grandmother to these meetings, but that wasn't in the report.  But you never told them he had a falling out with his mother and grandmother over painting the house.  Yeah, from reading the transcript ... [that took place].

Now asking about 2009 proceeding. Laub reads from the transcript.

That is a possibility, but it was normal, ups and downs with family.  Did you tell them he had a falling out .... I think that he still had a relationship with him. Was that your testimony? Yes.

As to your belief that Mr. Brown was a loving father, is that based on what you observed? Yes. That Mr. Brown was a good man? Yes. [The witness adds more. Objection. Sustained. Second, question stricken.

Your believe that you stated, Mr. Brown was a good father, is that based upon what you yourself personally observed? Yes.  He tries to add more but DDA Hum objects. Sustained.

Is it your belief that he is a good man? Yes. Very good man.

Redirect ends and recross begins.

You just testified it is your opinion the defendant is a good man? Yes.

I'm going to ask you to assume that it's true, that the defendant tried to get the mother of his child deported, would you still consider the defendant a good man if he tried to get her deported? Yes.

You would think that was a good man? Well, it depends on the character of the person.

If I told you to assume the defendant tried to get the mother of his child fired from her job, would you still consider that the defendant is a good man? The witness is very befuddled. I miss his answer.

Now asks about to assume that it was true, that the defendant tried to have Sarah have an abortion even after she said no. Assume that it's true, that the defendant told a court [mandated reporter?] that the defendant's mother had pulled at Lauren's face, kicked her, and pulled an earring from her ear, would you still believe the defendant was a good person?

The witness evades the answer, and doesn't believe that these things are true.

Assume to be true, that the defendant filed a false police report, that Sarah threatened to kill him, would you still believe that the defendant is a good person?

Recross ends and there is a last, redirect question that I miss. Witness is excused.

Mr. Laub calls his next witness, Joseph Crennen.


I live in in Inglewood Colorado, and I'm an insurance agent. He knows Mr. Brown.

We met when I [was?] done with college, so '85 or '86 I'd say. He knew a friend of my wife. They went to high school together. We'd go mountain biking and do things together.

We would go skiing, snowshoeing, mountain biking, and sailing.

Was Mr. Brown somebody who, was the kind of person who would hold back, or push the envelope? No, he'd like to go for it. Can you give us examples of that? When we would go biking, it wasn't just recreational. It was hard core biking. We'd go areas and we'd get lost and explore.

Laub asks for more details. One time we went up to Idaho springs, Denver, there were mining trails and trails that were crisscrossing everywhere. We got lost. It made me nervous, but we got back.

Knew that Mr. Brown lived in a cabin. He stayed there once [with Brown]. It was above Breckenridge. It was very snowy. We snowboarded then.

Laub asks about the weather and going beyond normal limits. The cabin was 10,000 ft [high] or beyond that, so it was very snowy.  It was less than 1,000 sq ft. 600 or 700 sq ft. It didn't have running water or electricity. It was just a backpacker's cabin.

Mr. Browns attitude in other people activities, was he someone who followed, or was he a leader? No he liked to propose trips. He liked to be the leader.

How long was it that you had an ongoing relationship with Mr. Brown? It was from '85 or so, to when he moved out here. We did stuff, quite often.

Your experience with Mr. Brown was open about, talking about his personal feelings, or was he more closed about talking about matters of the heart? I would say he's more close to the vest about his emotions.

Did Mr. Brown return to Colorado, when you were present? Yeah, he came out, but I'd only see him once or twice.  When he came back, were you and Mr. Brown, were with a group of people that had a toast? Yeah, that was in Breckenridge, and he told us about his daughter.

What was the point of the toast? It's been so long, it's hard to remember.  I think that's when he'd gotten some custody, or found out that it was his child, I think.

At this moment it was ... Objection. [Miss ruling.]

At that point where the group was having this toast, what was Mr. Brown's, ... how did he appear to you, in regards to his daughter? He seemed happy about it.  Did he do anything to show that he was proud of her, or pass around a photograph? Objection. Leading. Sustained.

Do you remember him doing anything about him being expressive of his daughter? As I recall ...

What kind of places did Mr. Brown like, did he like hills, flat lands, cliffs, what would you say? I mean, he just liked doing the activity what ever it was, hiking skiing, I don't really recall specifics.

Was he a person who would be sharing these experiences with others? Yes.

Did he seem to be a person who was mean spirtied or kindhearted? I would say more neutral.

Was he, when you say neutral, was his emotions very open or closed? ...

Judge Lomeli: I think he testified he was close to the vest.

Do you recall whether Mr. Brown ever phoned you and talked to you about his daughter Lauren? Yes he did.

Can you remember anything about that conversation? Again I wouldn't have a clue what year it was. I remember him calling and that, I don't recall if it was after the time he went to Breckenridge, or I don't recall when it was.  Please state question again.

Did Mr. Brown ever phone you and talk to you about his daughter Lauren? Yes.

Do you remember anything about the conversation? He said he had a daughter.

[Don't have the question for this answer.] I assume it was after the paternity [test regarding his?] daughter, and that he was mad about it, and wanted the mom to [abort] it.

Another time, did he call and talk to you about visitation rights? I don't recall that, no.

The phone call about being mad about it, in terms of time, was that before or after he returned to Colorado and the group was toasting? I don't know.

When you and Mr. Brown would talk, did you ever talk about doing outdoor things with Lauren? Uh, no.

Eventually, you wrote a letter of support for Mr. Brown? Yes, I did. Why did you do that? I can't beleive that he did that.

Direct ends and cross examination begins.

After the defendant, moved to California, [you] saw the defendant in person once or twice? Yes.

And you considered yourself a friend of his? Yes.

You never met Lauren? You never saw the defendant interact with his daughter? No.

You and the defendant would do outdoors things? [Yes.] The defendant was an outdoors man? Yes.

Would you say the defendant was a person who would recognize danger? Yes.

Do you know Bill Gnam? Yes. Was Bill a friend of yours and the defendants? Yes.

You got to visit with Mr. Gnam last night? Yes.

Was Mr. Gnam a friend of both yours and the defendant's? Yes.

You would do things together? No, Bill wasn't an outdoors man. There were friend things we would do [other types of things] together.

The defendant's lawyer asked you if you wrote a letter in support of the defendant? Yes.

You were contacted by the defendant's brother-in-law? Yes.

And he said hey, could you write a letter for the defendant? Yes.

Do you remember when it was, this letter was written? No.

When this letter was written, did you know any of the facts of Lauren's death? Well, I'd had to look at the letter, to remember.

You've read things? Yes. I've read all of it.

At the time you wrote this letter, that was shortly after the defendant was arrested? I don't remember when I wrote the letter.

In this letter that you wrote to support your friend, did you mention anything about this toast at all? I don't remember.

Has the witness read the letter to himself.

There's nothing in her about having a toast? No. Is there anything in this letter that mentioned this toast? No.

Cross ends and redirect begins.

In the letter, did you also say that Cam was devastated about the loss? Did you ever have any kind of interaction with Mr. Brown, in the person or on the phone, to cause you to write that Cam was devastated about his daughter? [Miss answer.]

What is it that happened in the phone conversation? As I recall, he had told me what happened in a phone conversation. Cam was deeply sad. Like I said, Cam doesn't show emotion that much.


The defendant told you what happened. Did he tell you the details? No. Did you ask him? No. I was pretty freaked out.

Well, he told me his daughter died, and I had to find out the facts about that later.

Did you call him or he called you, if you remember? I don't.

When he told you how his daughter died, you didn't ask him, how that happened? I would have think I would, but I don't recall.

You would think that would be a normal question, if your friend told you? I would think so.

The court asks their own question how he found out about the specifics.  "Friends and the Internet."

One of your friends from Colorado or the Internet is how you found out about [the incident?] He doesn't know. Do you recall the defendant telling you any details about how Lauren died? No, I don't.

I believe the witness is excused and the court calls the lunch break.

11:56 AM
The lunch break is called.

1:28 PM
Back inside the courtroom.  DDA Hum and Detective Leslie are setting up their files. Sarah, her girlfriend who has been here the most is here, along with the girlfriend's daughter.

1:29 PM
Mr. Laub arrives .
A few moments later, the next witness. It's another character witness that enters Dept. 107. I remember him testifying in the second trial. I recognize him. I believe this is the witness who lived in Hawaii back in 2009.

1:32 PM
Judge Lomeli takes the bench. Mr. Laub's private investigator is here. Brown is brought out. He looks at the witness and the witness gave a hand signal to Brown, just a movement of the wrist and a pointing of his finger is what I believe I observed.

While the court is waiting, the court asks the investigator a witness who has not cooperated, Craig Albritton (sp?). I believe the court orders for the witness to be picked up for ignoring a subpoena.

1:37 PM
The jury enters.

Please tell us where you live and what you do for a living. I live in Hawaii and I'm retired. He worked for American Airlines for 25 years.

Did you become union rep? Yes.  [What does a union rep do?] Union rep tries to negotiate between the company and the employees. What the needs are, what the company can afford, etc.

Were you representing the side of the employees [or the employers]? Both, both. Employee problems between employees and employees and company. He used his flight benefits to get here. He has a family of his own.

My wife, an airline employee, his daughter, 15 years old. Would like to show you a photograph. It's a photo of Brown holding the witness' daughter.

Does Cameron Brown have any special relationship with your daughter? Yes. He is my daughter's godfather. They met at American Airlines in the early 90's.

The witness transferred from Ontario Airport to LAX. At some point, he became Brown's work chief.  They did a lot of bike riding, surfing and sailing together. I introduced him to the Inland Empire's motorcycle dirt bike racing.

His daughter was born 2/19/2000. At that time they had conversations about daughters and kids.  Did they discuss negatively or positively? We just discussed things we liked to do.

We discussed, riding, biking sailing, anything we liked to do with our daughters.

We were out bike riding at a camping site, his camper had a sleeper, he offered that to my wife and I, and he sat out by the stars.  Was that an important night for you and your wife? That's when our little girl was conceived.

Did Mr. Brown say anything in your presence, trying to get out to being a father? No. If he had, do you think he would still be the person to be godfather to your daughter? Absolutely.

At some point you were interviewed by detectives? In Hawaii. Doesn't recall the detectives. Thinks he knows Detective Leslie.

Before you were interviewed, did anyone from the, law enforcement investigating this case, discuss this case with you on the phone? Not to my recollection.

The first time you talked to them was when they contacted you in Hawaii? [Kalaloma?] PD contacted me. He went down to a police station to talk to them. They said there were some detectives from California that wanted to talk to me. And did you do that? Yes I did.

How did they behave? One very well, and the other one a little pushy.

Can't remember which one was more pushy.  Were you asked if Mr. Brown had ever shown you any photographs of Lauren? I believe they did. As I recall, I recall that, I believe I did see photographs of her.

When did you first learn that Mr. Brown had a daughter? I can't recall that.

Do you remember if it was from him? I believe it was from him.

How did he appear at that time? Happy.

Far as this interview with detectives in Hawaii, if you had been contacted by telephone, would you have given an interview over the phone? Objection! Sustained.

When you answered questions, did you do so to the best of your ability? I did.

How long had it been since you had spent time with Mr. Brown? I'd say nine years.

Was everything clear in your mind where you had talked about Mr Brown? I believe some things were and some things weren't.

A few questions, about where he got his information about this case.

Did you have any difficulty in talking to detectives, as to what information you got from Mr. Brown and what you got from other sources? Yeah, things get cluttered up.

Did you watch TV and see anything about Lauren's death? Not in Hawaii.  In California. There may be something but I don't recall.

Do you remember about a silver van? Objection! Sustained.

Judge Lomeli: Is that right sir, do you recall? It's been a while.

Did the detective ever ask you about your relationship with your daughter? I don't recall.

Did at American Airlines, when people would talk about having a weekend off, what did a weekend mean? Whatever your days' off were.

As far as income, for people who were, ... what is a line crew? They are the crews that work on the ramp directly when flights were coming in and out of the terminal.

Is that a job where someone's income to go up and down depending on what the work was? [Yes.]

The individual's who worked in that position could work lower or increase their hours? [Yes.}

Question about if there were people who could earn upwards of R150,000 a year? Yes, there are people who have done that.

Have you ever been to Palos Verdes area? No. In your mind is there a distinction between Palos Verdes and Inspiration Point? No.

Did Mr. Brown ever ask you to escort him to the parking lot? Yes.  ... He thought he was going to be run over or attacked in some way. Did he say by whom? He said, Key, Key-Marer.

He expressed that he thought something was going to happen to him in the lot? A few times.

When he ever talked about Lauren, did he speak about the future with her? Yes. A happy future, an unavoidable future? Objection! Speculation.

Did the defendant make a comment about that? Yes he did. He seemed like he was going to have a future together.  Objection. Foundation. Sustained. Stricken.

More questions about Brown wanting a future with Lauren.

Did you have any contact with Mr. Brown after Lauren's death? Phone calls.

Was there any emotion you could read about how he seemed to feel about Lauren's death? He seemed upset about it.

Direct ends and cross begins.

We've spoken before, the last time you testified? That's correct.

And you have a transcript of your testimony, were you going over it over the lunch hour? Yes. And was anyone with you? Mr. Laub and his investigator.

Questions about Mr. Brown wanting him to go to the parking lot with him.

Doesn't recall Brown telling him that Sarah wanted to kill him.

March 5 of 2009, you spoke with detectives? yes. Did you tell the detectives, that Sarah was stalking him and trying to run him over with her car? I believe I included that.

At the time you were talking to them you were telling them the truth as the best you could remember? Absolutely.

Did the defendant ask you to walk him to your car, so there would be a witness, if Sarah tried to kill him? Don't know about killing, but a witness if something happened.

Did you, did the defendant tell you that Sarah had tried to run him over multiple times with her car? I don't remember if it was something that she tried to do or if that was something he was worried about.

Doesn't remember testifying to that in 2009. DDA Hum shows him the prior testimony.

Yeah. That sounds about right.

Were you also asked the question: Did the defendant tell you that Sarah, Lauren's mother, tried to run him over not only at American Airlines, but where ever she could find him? He agrees he testified to that back in 2009.

About how many times did you walk the defendant to the parking lot? About 2 or 3 times. Did anyone try to run him over? No, not that I could see.

Mr. Thompson, I believe, would you consider yourself a friend of the defendant? Yes. A close friend but not best buddies? Correct.

In fact you'd like to help him out if you can? I'd like to get to the truth.

Hum confronts him with 2009 testimony [when the same question was asked of him]. [In 2009, you were asked:] You'd like to help out the defendant if you could, and you said Yes? Yes. So you testified to that previously? Yes.

Mr. Thompson, to your observation, did the defendant have a normal range of emotions? Yes. And you told the detective that? Yes.  And you told the detectives [that],  there was an incident where someone ran into him [on the tarmac at work] and he saw the defendant angry? I don't know if I'd call that angry, exchanging words.

Was there yelling? Yes. So they were yelling but you're not sure if they were angry? That's true.

Bi the way, did you at any point read the web site that the defendant's brother put up in support of him? Yes, I've read that one.

Now, before the defendant was arrested, about how frequently would you say you hung out with him? I'd say about once a month.

Did you tell detectives once a month or once every two months? I don't recall that.

He looks at his prior testimony, where he said once a month, or once every two months.

When did you move to Hawaii? 2007.

Prior to that, he lived in Fontana, CA. How many times did you meet Lauren/ I don't believe I ever did.

When you say sir, you don't believe you ever did, if you met Lauren, you would remember that? I don't know if I'd remember that.

But this was someone that you felt close enough to that you made the godfather of your daughter? Correct.

And you're saying that you wouldn't necessarily remember meeting his daughter? I don't recall.

Interview, page 42 counsel.

So you were asked [via interview] if you'd ever met Lauren, and you said, In person, no?  Correct.

And when you were under oath, you testified that you never met Lauren. [?] And now it's your testimony that you never met Lauren? I guess so.

Did the defendant ever tell you when Sarah got pregnant? I don't mean a specific date? Well, this is [11, 12?] years ago.

Read this question by Detective Leslie and your answer.  So you were asked by Detective Leslie, if Brown ever told you that Sarah was pregnant and your answer was: I believe he mentioned it to me? Correct.

Did you know if the defendant was paying child support? I don't believe so.

Did you remember the defendant telling you his wife was a well off Greek woman? You may have said that.  He doesn't remember where that came from.

You told detectives that his wife was a well off Greek woman? Well, if it's there.

Did the defendant ever tell you that he tried to have Sarah deported? I don't recall that either.

Did the defendant ever tell you that he had no contact with Lauren for the first threee yars of her life? I don't recall that.

The defendant told you that he had visitation every other weekend? I believe so.

The defendant told you, that he and Lauren went hiking every other weekend? I don't recall that.

DDA Hum has him look at his statement to detectives. Page 5.

So, he told you that he got Lauren every other weekend and their activities were mostly hiking? Correct.

In fact, the defendant told you that they went hiking at Inspiration Point before and that. It was one of her favorite spots? I don't recall that. I'd have to see it.

DDA Hum shows him the transcript.


So, the defendant told you first, the detectives asked you, where they were the day that Lauren died was Inspiration Point. Were you familiar with that? Yes.

Had you ever hear Cameron Brown mention that place? I believe he did. Do you know if they had ever been hiking there before> and you answered: I believe it was one of their favorite spots.

So you gave those answers? Yes i did.

In fact, you came back to that topic again, and Detective Leslie had asked if the defendant had mentioned that location to you on prior occasions? I'd have to see it again.

Shows him the transcript again. Okay.

So in fact Detective Leslie asked you: Cameron had mentioned that location on prior occastions, yes, yes. He also previously stated, that it seemed to be their favorite places.

So according to you, the defendant would go hiking there and it seemed to be one of their favorite places? Correct

When they interviewed you, were you aware of what the defendant had told detectives? I don't recall.

After Lauren died, did you talk with the defendant, face to face, about what happened? I don't recall that either.

Prior testimony. Interview page 10 and 11. Witness reads.

So when you spoke to Detective Leslie, you told him that after Lauren died, the defendant kind of opened up to you a little bit and told you what happened? Yes.

Did you hear it on the news first and you said: I'm pretty sure I heard it from Cameron first.

He thinks it was at work in person, and Detective Leslie said: At work? Yeah.

He thinks it was at work but he's not absolutely positive.

You also told the detectives that, you think the defendant only told you about what happened once, but it was so drastic, you tried to remember all the details? Correct.

Was the defendant crying when he told you? I don't recall that.

So Detective Leslie asked you: Was he crying when he told you, you said no, he wasn't crying, he just seemed like to be lost? [Miss answer.]

So the defendant told you what happened? Well, I don't recall where you got that.

Well that's an interesting statement Mr. Thompson, you told detectives that you got that information from the defendant.  And in 2009, you said ...

[Not positive if this is a continuation, or a different question.]

And a different attorney said: Isn't it true, that you're confusing what you read on the Internet or what he told you, and you replied, Now that you mention it? [Miss answer.]

Back when the detectives interviewed you, you didn't say you heard it on TV. You didn't say you heard it on the Internet?

There are many questions and the witness can't recall anything he said to detectives prior, or what he testified to prior. 

Did the defendant say to you at work: "No I can't talk about this."? Well, I don't know about that.

Did the defendant tell you that this happened in the Palisades? I believe so. Did the defendant tell you that it was in close proximity to his house? I believe so.

Did the defendant tell you that it was in close proximity to the rocks and that he would reach for her and pull her up? I don't remember.

Well, lets look at the transcript.

Prior testimony. 

2:29 PM
Witness reads.

Let me show you page 86 and you can read the first 7-8 lines there, it will complete it.

By the way Mr. Thompson, this transcript deals with your testimony, deals with your testimony that you stated that the defendant told you about how Lauren died.

He didn't spend much time reading it over the lunch hour.
Lets go over it.

Let's start at line 4 pg 8603

And it was face to face? it was actually face to face? Correct.

And then you were asked a question, and the defendant actually told you what happened the day Lauren died? Correct. Correct.

And he didn't tell you, that he couldn't tell you that he had an attorney? [No.]

And that it was close to the rocks and he would go there first and then pull her up?

And then did the defendant tell you that a foot is a mile and she slipped and fell? If that's what there, but I don't recall.

At that point he turned around and a foot is a mile and she slipped and fell? Do you remember giving that question and answer? If it's on there.

And to the best of your recollection that's what the defendant told you? To the best of your recollection.

And then he said he walked out onto the street in a daze, and asked a lady to call 911? If that's what's there.

So were you asked this question and did you give this answer: And then the defendant told you he freaked out, he walked out into a daze and a lady in a van pulled up and asked her to call 911? That's what the defendant told you? Answer: To the best of my recollection.

The next question was, in fact you told the detectives, that was your answer, to the best of your recollections. Remember giving that answer? I guess so.

And the defendant asked this lady to call 911? I don't recall.

And then you told detectives that the defendant asked this lady to call 911? And you answered: I believe so? If it's there, I guess I said it.

And then, you were asked whether or not, the defendant told you, that there was a tight section where he hiked up first and he was trying to help her, and she fell? And you gave this answer: Correct? I guess, if it's on there.

And you were asked those questions and giving those answers/ To the best of my recollection.

He doesn't recall the defendant telling him he went down to the beach to use the cell phone? I guess, I don't remember.

Mr. Hum crosses him on every question of his prior testimony.

Di the defendant ever tell you that he was sitting down looking at the view when Lauren fell off? I don't recall that.

More questions he was asked in 2009, gone over in detail about what he was asked and what his answers were in 2009.

And the defendant never told you that he was sitting at the top of Inspiration Point, and Lauren was running around throwing rocks and she just fell, he never told you that did he, and your answer is no. Did you give that answer in 2009? If it's there, I don't know.

The defendant never told you that he was pointing out where Marine lsland would be and he looked back and she was gone?  [If it's there...]

Did the defendant ever tell you that while his daughter's body was floating in the water, he got undressed? I don't know.

He can't remember. He mentions Alzheimer's and dementia. DDA Hum asks him if he's ever been diagnosed with those two illnesses.

All the answers on this page are no.

Questions about: He never told you he did CPR?  No

He never told you he got redressed after he retrieved her body? No.

He never told you .... more questions.

He told you that he ran to the road and a woman in  a sliver van stopped and he told her to call 911? Yeah, to the best of my recollection.

And that's what you testified to in 2009? Yeah, okay.

Mr Thompson, so that we are totally clear, you told them the truth to the best of your recollection? Yes.

And when you testified under oath, in a prior proceeding, you were telling the truth? To the best of my recollection.

Thank you Mr. Thompson.

Cross ends and redirect begins.

Laub asks for a moment.

Laub has no further questions.

Ann Marie Robertson.

A woman enters walking with a cane.


Ms. Robertson, you don't personally know Mr. Brown do you? No. How did you first become involved in this case. I took my daughter [and her friend] down to abalone cove and they swam in the water.

What year was it that you first made contact with anyone involved? It was 2000, 1999?

We were coming up the trail, and there was a little girl that was coming down, and I assumed the dad was right behind her. She looked like a happy little girl. And he was so deep in thought and then he looked up.

Was speaking to someone in my ceramics class, and mentioned that she had been there. And then she didn't think that it was important because they were coming down the trail and they were going up.

So it was something you saw in 2006 that made you think? At that time, it didn't occur to me that I was a witness.

So you told them what you basically told us here today. I told them that, and they said, why didn't you say it sooner, and I just didn't think of it, I didn't think of the significance.

Did you ever see the photos? No. She was a little girl, she reminded me of my daughters when she was two or three. She was very happily running down the trail.

The witness continues on without a question.

And then when ...

Objection! Sustained. I'm sorry.

About what time of day was this? You know I did take pictures that day, and then I scanned them into my computer and they had the date on them. Objection.

Court: What time was it? You know, I really don't know what time it was. but it's on those pictures.

I'd like to have three photographs marked next in order. Defense Y1, Y2, Y3.

Are these the photographs you took that day? Yeah. And was this taken on November 8th of 2000? As far as I know.

The photographs were taken the day that you were there? Yeah and we don't go there that often.

The one of the days that you remembered was your ceramics class? Yes. And your ceramics day was what day? There were some of them that were on Monday and Thursdays, and there was an evening class too.

Di you remember being interviewed by Detective Leslie on June 17, 2006? The witness asks: Was it personally, or on the phone?

At your house. At my house ... I can't say that I necessarily remember that.

Well, do you remember talking with a detective in June 2006? I remember talking to Scott [the private investigator, Scott Ross]. I remember him.

This gentleman over here? Yes. I remember him.

Indicating the defendant's investigator.

I'd like to, showing her a police report, date stamped. just take a look and tell me if that refreshes your memory about speaking to Detective Leslie.

Uh, yeah, that makes sense right there. About the daytime and the nighttime classes.

If this refreshes your memory. Yeah, I think so. It places it at November 8, 2000? Does this help you to remember what it is that made it possible for you to remember this happened on 11/8/200? Yeah.

And you already told us that, you had a friend you spoke to the next day. No it was that night. It was the same night.

Well, that's a problem, it seemed like it was at night, it was in the afternoon, [The witness explains that for this ceramics class:] I could go anytime I wanted, so, that would make it hard for me to remember, too.

This is a photograph you took that day? The children are your children? One is her daughter and one is her daughter's friend.

The court calls for the afternoon break.
3:00 PM

On the  record. Judge Lomeli addresses counsel. Talking about logistics. We should be finished before the 7th, to accommodate the viewing, if we for some reason we are not, We'll keep the 7th as the viewing and have the witness after that.

After that, I want counsel to meet with the team as well, to give you specifics.

At one time the defendant was on the bluff, he could have a good advantage point.

DDA Hum states that one prior time, the defendant did go to the viewing, another time he did not. The one time he went, the defendant's attorney wanted him out on the cliff, but he wasn't there at the same time as the jurors.  The court asks, well, what was the purpose of that?  [I miss DDA Hum's answer.]

The court asks when does Laub see them resting?  Laub states Tuesday morning.

DDA Hum says if there isn't anything finished before the site visit, it will be minor.

Laub states, it looks like we'll be done Tuesday morning or after.

Laub asks about closing arguments on Monday the 11th. The court states, that's what we're contemplating. That's optimistic.


Call the jury.

Brown stands while the investigator sits. Brown has a short conversation with his investigator.

The court tells the jury about the site visit. They are to get here by 9 am so we can depart by 10 am. We will have lunch out there and return by 4:30 pm.  That occurs next Thursday the 7th.  Then both sides will rest by next Tuesday. After the viewing occurs, the court will address instructions. The attorneys will then come in on Monday morning, to give their arguments.  I pre-instruct. You'll get your instructions. So the prosecution will rest on Wednesday. The defense will rest on Tuesday.

The judge tells the jurors to make sure they wear shoes with traction. DDA Hum advises the jurors to wear hats and sunscreen.

We are back on the record with the witness on the stand.

Over the break, [the witness] she was asked to review the Detective's report.

Can you describe for us the person you said, who appeared to be the father? Oh, okay. He was a younger guy and he wasn't skinny he wasn't fat. He was a regular guy. He was walking down the trail deep in thought. His hands were in the pockets by his sides, He was deep in thought. He was about 5' 10, 5' 11, he was taller than me. She was a little girl and she had on shorts or a little dress. As far as my memory serves me, she had sandals on and she was bouncing down the trial. I think she had longer hair, or medium length hair.

Thank you.

DDA Hum crosses the witness.

Ms. Robertson [the defense attorney] asked you if you recall the date being November 8, of 2000. And you believed you said that after looking at the report that helped you remember the date. Yes, I'm pretty sure it was my night class.

Did it say somewhere in there the date? I think so.

Well, I've read the whole thing several times and I don't see a date.

DDA Hum tells the witness: There's no date in there.

She thinks it did have the date in there. Let's her look through the report again.

The defense will stipulate that the date of November 8th, is not stated in this report. Stipulate to that counsel? DDA Hum, I will.

Ms. Roberson, would it be accurate to say, the thing that sticks most in your mind about that day, was that the man appeared to be deep in thought and looking at the ground? Yes.

Would it be accurate to say, was that you had to wake him up from that deep thought? Yes.

He did not seem to be concentrating on happy thoughts, he seemed to be ... Objection Sustained.

Judge Lomeli asks: He appeared serious to you? Yes.

He reminded me of my brother, who's a physicist and you have to wake him up.

You said you thought you recalled seeing the date in the report. And we all agree that it's not there.

Isn't it accurate that you didn't recall the time of day you arrived? Yes. You didn't recall the time you left? Correct.  You didn't recall the date? Correct. You didn't recall the year? Not until I saw the pictures.

The pictures, do they tell you the date? No, not on the photo, but on my computer it does.

You told them you couldn't recall what vehicle you drove? Right.

You couldn't remember where you parked. No, I said it was either or. The parking lot or the street.

You thought the little girl was wearing a dress or shorts?  You told detectives you didn't recall any facial hair [on the man]? I don't remember.

And I think you also said, the first time you said anything to police is when you saw an article in 2006? Is that correct? Yes.

Cross ends and redirect begins.

One of the things you did tell the detectives, in 2006 that you're taking to detectives, what you told them at that time, the way that you placed the date of your visit, that night, your friend at the ceramics class, had said something about this girl going off the cliff, and it was the very day you saw this father and daughter coming down the cliff?  Yes.

Witness is excused.

 Asking questions about Nov 8, 2000? Where you working at that time? I was working at Pacific Palisades, in Kids Corner. At approximately at 2:45 in the afternoon, I was driving on Palos Verdes Drive South. Driving up to his work site.

Did you see anything at that time that stuck out in your memory? I saw a little girl and her father walking on the left side of the road.

Was the little girl, can you tell how old she was? I would say about 7 or 8? Can you describe her to us? I glanced. I don't remember too much.

Can you remember what the father looked like? I really can't remember.
Was the girl behind or in front. She was in front by a few steps.

Defense Z.  [It's a photograph of a road sign for Peppertree Drive.]
Do you recognize what you see? Yes I do.

That's Peppertree Drive, that goes behind the gates of Palos Verdes.  Were the father and the little girl, were they near that?  I would say they were this side of the sign. [Were they behind or facing?] They would be looking at the sign.

And will you tell me again which direction they were walking? They were walking towards San Pedro. I was driving in the opposite direction.

They had a police blockade, and I pulled over and that's when I told them I saw them walking.

Defense exhibit AA. Were you shown this flyer at the time you were stopped?  To the best of my recollection.

And you told police these were the two people that you saw walking along? Yes.

Were the two people walking at a normal pace? Yes.

Direct ends and cross begins.

You were driving westbound? Yes. These people were on the opposite side there? Correct.

And you don't usually see people out there? Not usually. Sometimes.

And the road is a rolling road? And there's actually, a side street that comes in at Peppertree? Yes.

The speed limit there is about 40? About 35 I'd say.

[How fast were you going?] I was going about the speed limit. If you go fast you would be hitting a lot of bumps.

When you first saw these people, how far were you from them? Oh, I'd say 40 feet maybe.

So, just from an east-west... ? It would have been five feet, because I would have driven right past them. So I kinda saw them up the hill, and drove just past them.

If they they were on the same side? [Miss answer in feet.] So about to here? No, I'd say they were more like at the back of the room.

The court states 36 feet.

If you were 36 feet away from them when you first saw them, and traveling about 50 feet per second, it would take about less than a second to pass them? A couple seconds.

You said that you were going about 30 feet per second. Even if it was 50 feet, and another, half, probably would have passed them in a second? A few seconds.

You told us that they were walking at a normal pace? It seemed like a normal pace. It could have been faster.

I'm not trying to trick you. You're driving 35 miles per hour, I'm just wondering how much time you could have spent, watching their pace? They just seemed like they were walking. They' weren't running. It just seemed like a normal pace.

3:54 PM
The witness is excused and the jury is excused.  The jury files out.

Tomorrow at 9:30 AM.