Guest entry by ritanita
Day 23 – 2/8/08
We're live and back on cross of Mr. Koch.
To spare you the excruciating details, I'll just give the "highlights" of all this computer information. It would seem we will continue to examine every file, every "last access date.”
Aside from taking some old material added to the computer, there is only one new file on the Documents folder, the baby shower invitation.
There is a Telescan AIQ program which would download market information when it closes. It updates stock market price. There is a timed update where you wouldn't have to be sitting on the computer, but the computer must be on. (Remember, this is a dial-up connection). Mr. Koch points out that if the computer wasn't on and missed an update, you would have to re-initiate the program.
The point is that you can't tell if someone was sitting at the computer at the time of the update.
This program is updated up to December 2, 1998. Koch doesn't know this application well, but he can't say if any use was made of this program, such as the creation of charts.
We are again treated to a huge calendar for November 1998. It shows that Telescan connected to the internet, but he has fragmented history data.
Albee - nobody had to be home for this computer to automatically update. The computer had to be on. The program would automatically connect to the internet and download information.
Koch - correct, barring corroborative evidence, he can't prove who, if anyone was at the keyboard.
Albee - you can't say if, on one single date, throughout this time period, anyone was at the keyboard when the automated update was run?
Koch - can't say
Objection and argument.
Albee - July, pornographic sites visited.
Koch - Yes
Albee - No other pornographic sites after July?
Koch - Doesn't recall, it's a large exhibit.
Albee - Asks Koch to look at October on
Koch - One from 11/3/98 about 10:58 pm (only one third cookie recovered).
Albee - Could it have come from another site?
Koch - Most reliable sites don't want porn sites.
Albee - Could be something like The Anarchist's Cookbook?
Koch - Yes, he can't tell if the site was accessed.
Apparently Mark was interested in other topics about this time!
Albee - There are no porn sites connected with poison searches?
Koch - No, and they occurred after October 1.
Again, Albee elicits the response that Mr. Koch can't say if anyone read the sites.
We are going round and round! The gist of all this testimony is that nobody can prove who was using the computer, if anyone. If pages were accessed, there is no proof they were read.
Testimony goes on to the use of the business site. Anyone with the password could read the e-mail at the site.
Exhibit 280: Select web pages put together by Mr. Hallard.
Organization: Not exactly in chronological order?
Koch - they should be (apparently they are not)
Search for botulism 10/16 shortly after midnight.
Albee - Situation is "the cook kills the diner?"
Koch - Yes
Koch gives list of computers and equipment seized, along with dates.
Albee - November 10th searches. Did anyone subscribe to newsgroups?
Koch - yes
Albee - alt.suicide? (subscribed/unsubscribed)
Koch - yes - he describes newsgroups as of 1998
Albee - Groups relate to topics?
Koch - yes (one of the many thousands)
Albee - any other groups?
Koch - no
Albee - And were there other searches for suicide?
Koch - No internet history for that. Yes, he found a Yahoo search for suicide.
Albee- Search for physician assisted suicide?
Koch - Yes
Albee - Someone went to a webpage for a Noel Early? Advocate for assisted suicide?
Koch - Yes
Albee - Any other search?
Koch - Could be a newsgroup search.
We all know where this is going!
Albee - And this is the first day for searches on ethylene glycol?
Koch - Can't find any
Albee - Shows note from Koch stating 11/10 as first day of EG searches.
Koch – Yes
Jambois on re-direct:
Jambois - Starting with November, 1998 (refers to Albee's big calendar).
Albee objects.... leading
Jambois - points out days of no activity
Albee objects ... leading
Jambois - is referring to the fact that there is not indication on some days that the stock market program did not update. He can't say why it wasn't updated?
Koch - no, it could have been off
Jambois - refers to state exhibit
Albee - objects, Jambois moves on to Julie's daily log, sidebar.
View of clock, the jury is probably being sent out.
Albee mentions direct examination yesterday. He objected to something about mercury fulminate being on screen when objection sustained. Jambois is doing a variation of that today. Mr. Jambois is going to make a comment that should be made in closing arguments... that Mark Jensen was out of town on certain dates.
Jambois wants to show Julie's calendar to show Mark was out of town when the Telescan wasn't updated. (The fact is covered by a post-it-note from earlier in the trial)
The judge points out that it is argumentative and Albee's objection is right on point. He is making a mid-trial judgment. The witness doesn't know about the daytimer! Jambois says, "he will if I show it to him!" Jambois can't use the book; he can only ask if the Telescan was updated that day.
10 minute break
Jambois - Asks Koch to open Telescan to show if there is a default.
Koch - Demonstrates options for automatic retrieval of data. Set to do it immediately. It's set up to use user interaction. This is the way it was when the computer was seized. He found no evidence if the box was ever set to auto-timed download.
Jambois - Is their any consistency in downloads?
Koch - On 2nd and 3rd, but not on other dates. Great deal of variability.
Jambois - any dates when it wasn't accessed?
Koch - Yes (lists the dates)
Jambois - Would you expect it to do this every day if programmed that way. (objection sustained)
Jambois goes on to August, July and asks if there is any variability?
Koch - Yes, but mostly used in the evenings, at different times.
Albee objects and is overruled.
Moves on to sites accessed.
Jambois - For 11/10/98, go through sites accessed in order. (These were accessed from 12:35 AM on)
1. Yahoo search for suicide
2. Yahoo - physician assisted suicide
3. Yahoo - Noah Early
4. Yahoo home page
Discussion of amount of time accessed.
5. Yahoo - Medicine (can't show all links)
6. Yahoo - Toxicology
7. Various chemicals.... including EG
9. Absorption study of unintentional CO2 following winter storm
10. Repeat site
11. Repeat site (scrolls down the site which shows many pages) Print too small to read!
12. Similar looking site, but different. Viewer can't see headings... Jambois mentions St. John's Wort
13. Chemical Health and Safety Data
14. Can't be viewed
15. Element from previous page (can't be viewed)
16. Radian? site - scrolls through the site, Jambois reads some chemicals off, toxicity
17. L. Nicotine
10/8/98 (Beginning 10:35 pm)
1. Page from The Street.com (stock page)
10/10/98 (10 AM... a Saturday)
1. Planetarium site
10/11/98 (starting 10:35 AM... Sunday)
We are skipping some sites, they are extensive.
2. Patagonia women's clothing
3. Orvis catalog directory (fishing)
4. Orvis homepage
6. Yahoo - Patagonia
10/12/98 (early AM)
1. Yahoo - Marriott Hotels
1. Marriott hotel
2. Restaurants - Morton's Chicago
3. The street.com (11:16 AM)
1. The Street
2. Sprint PCS coverage, St. Louis
3. Big Cedar Lodge
4. Big Cedar Lodge, other lodges
5. Big Cedar Lodge, rates for honeymoon cabin
1. 10:28 PM The Street
1. Blank (gap in temp. internet files)
At this point, they are going back to the cookies placed on the computer to pick up sites that came up in the "gaps" in the temporary internet files.
There is no evidence that any articles were downloaded or read from the Suicide newsgroup.
Jambois - How many mgs were created 12/17/98?
Koch - He calculated this last night. 3.2 mgs created. The size of 3 old-style floppy disks. Computer has 10.6 gig. hard drive. .03% of the hard drive was used in the process. 99.97% of the hard drive was not affected.
Albee - re-cross
He is trying to find out if any additional data could have been lost?
Koch - Yes, but it is hard to tell.
Albee asks about the recent testimony as to web pages accessed. Any poisons? No, but a pesticide was mentioned on one page.
Albee again brings up that Koch didn't do research on Telscan or contact the company. Koch did look into it and found some screens on 2008 version seem similar to 1998 version.
Albee - You are forced to speculate as to how that program worked?
Koch - Yes to a certain degree.
Albee - You didn't contact AIQ?
Koch - No
Albee - So you had to speculate? He goes on about lack of research into how this program worked.
Koch - In the real world.
Albee - You've only looked at a small number of web pages?
Koch - Yes, but Rhonda Mitchell testified to many other pages.
Albee - There are pages that are not included?
Koch - Yes
Albee - There is a lot of information on unallocated space you didn't look at?
Koch - Yes, there is too much information!
Albee - Questions how long pages were up, could there be pages missing in between?
Koch - Yes
Albee - It's obvious you don't know the person is looking at the page or getting a cup of coffee?
Koch - Yes
Albee - Shows Julie Jensen's resume. You saw this?
Koch - If it was on the computer.
Albee asks for judgment of acquittal and renews prior mistrial motions, in light of vast amount of sexually explicit materials which are unduly prejudicial.
Jambois - they need to get together about exhibits, what was admitted and not admitted before the prosecution rests.
He is looking at a handwritten note, from June 29, 1990. It is Julie's therapist? Mr. DeFazio.
"Women work... women who stay at home become brain dead?
"In-law trouble since baby was born, husband glad (she is getting help)
"plan is to see her 3 times and then the husband"
Julie was depressed, compliant to come in for therapy.
July 6, 1990 (one week later)
"spouse - absence of support" Dr. assumes this is due to change of family situation. This is a relatively common complaint with people with first child.
"older brother, child abuse, another brother died when he was 5, guilt (doesn't remember what the guilt is about)
"childhood was bad" unhappy
"depression - seasonal" Some people have more depression in spring and fall...shorter days in fall may be a cause
"see husband next week"
Letter J for either Julie or Jensen Guess Mark never showed up!
10/ 8 /1990
"mental illness of mother, alcoholism of mother and grandfather
Julie was having problems and she may have chemical imbalances. Looks at family history.
"suicide? brother attempted suicide age 17" Doesn't recall details.
Albee - In terms of chemical imbalances, does that indicate tendency towards suicide?
DeFazio - Have to also consider impulsive nature of adolescence.
"Possible dual diagnoses" The mother may have not been diagnosed as depressed, just alcoholic and many depressed people self-medicate with alcohol.
Diagnosis on first visit:
Adult situational reaction with mixed features -(relatively mild diagnosis) diagnosis in those days not to diagnose with depression due to stigma against depression Julie had so many issues, he didn't want to mislabel it to leave her with a permanent stigma.
Gives the example of stigma: When Eagleton was running for VP it become known he had been treated for depression and it had a bad effect on his goals.
"patient denies suicidal thoughts, because she could not do it to her baby"
Albee - Did you always get a straightforward answer?
DeFazio - no
Albee - Did you have patients who committed suicide? Yes
Albee - How many - About five
Albee - Ever have a young mother commit suicide? Yes
"increased depression" He wasn't sure if it was due to increased depression, or fall continuing
Albee - Is it common? Yes, people either increase or decrease eating.
Albee - Do people go into remission in depression? Can it go on for years? Yes
Albee - People tend to show the same symptoms
"Now terrified to leave baby and go to Hawaii on business trip to husband"
"Keeps problems inside, mulling, over ruminating, can't seem to push them away."
Referred Julie to a psychiatrist Dr. Newman
Saw her 10/8/ 1990
Married 6 years, knew him 6 years before, David, 6 mo. old
"Cried all the time leaving David for work"
"Husband feels she is too involved with the child"
"No appetite, cooking is a chore"
"Husband Mark, oldest of two, Julie is second oldest of 4"
"Mark represents stability, doesn't want wife to be brain dead."
May refer to Julie’s comment earlier.
"Mother was an alcoholic"
"Working in Illinois, 2 hour commute...(Mark) chronically depressed, crying easily" "DST arranged" Test used to measure for chemical imbalance. There were too many false positives with this test. Her results were normal.
Prozac prescribed by psychiatrist. (20 mg. prescribed. She was given a two week supply. 12/2/90, it was re-prescribed. Mrs. Jensen apparently continued it until April, 1991.
"Conference with husband, willing to be involved, explain situation to him, see in 3 weeks.
"Discussed meds, husband willing to be involved, call psych. for prescription." Explains they want to get spouse's view of symptoms because patient may not be lying, but may not see situation accurately.
"Improvement... less depressed, see in one week" Difficult to say if it was Prozac, therapy, season that caused improvement.
3/28/91 - "Job change in husband - increased anxiety, see in 2 weeks."
4/6/91 - Going to work on joint sessions.
4/16/91 - "Discussion of their wedding anniversary"
4/23/91 - Saw Mark in am
6/18/91 - "Patient doesn't feel progress fast enough... see another therapist"
He doesn't know what Julie did after that.
He also had a chance to meet Mark Jensen
9/11/90 "wanting to make changes, dropped out of nursing school" "highs and lows (Julie), life (can't read) husband (can't read)." "fixed on son seven months" Julie is fixated on her son, generally found in mother with newborns and postpartum depression.
"stop breast feeding" "fears that she'll end up like her mother."
10/16/90 No show
11/8/90 "Improving" Can't say if it was Julie or marriage
1/14/91 "Need to see Mark more often
2/8/91 "Argument with work situation, but still not???. Dr. can't read his own notes.
2/19/91 "He has need to stay home more, she has a need to go out."
3/12/91 No time for session -
3/19/91 "Help patient (Mark) get through work problem"
3/30/91 "Lost job... "
3/7/91 Mark cancelled
? Date Mark feels that he was satisfied with therapy, Julie wasn't.
I missed a little here... you do get the gist!
Albee: Characterize Mark Jensen:
De Fazio: He was quite introverted, stoic in behavior, willing to get himself involved in therapy. There were times when he didn't understand what was going on and he became quite introverted.
Albee: Do you recall any indication that Mark suffered from depression?
DeFazio: Can't say.
Ablee: Did you recall if he understood depression in someone else?
DeFazio was overwhelmed by Julie's depression and didn't know how to deal with it.
She asks if he remembers details of these sessions? No, not after all these years.
Did she ever ask for a prescription? Had samples, doesn't know if there was a prescription called in.
During the course of the sessions, did you understand Mrs. Jensen wanted to be a good wife and mother? Yes
Was seeing you due to conflict with husband? Primary concern that she bring child up in environment opposite of what she had.
Separation anxiety with baby? Quite common? Mothers cry when they have to go back to work? Yes
Those feelings can last for months or longer? Yes
Does that suggest that the mother's depressed? When mother is torn between working and child, it can create anxiety and stress? Fairly typical.
Wouldn’t expect this to lead a woman to commit suicide? Yes
(statement is correct)
The next is a summary of testimony.
The session about family history was a list of standard questions. Julie answered them but did not bring up these facts on her own.
Julie’s main focus was the stability of her child.
Hawaiian trip - not unusual for parents to not want to leave children behind. Mr. DeFazio doesn't recall if he went on the trip.
Julie's initial diagnosis given on first appointment - towards the mild end of depression, far away from suicidal depression. It can be a one-time depression.
Did Julie have a fear of being labeled as depressed? Doesn't know.
Did Jensen’s compromise on Julie's work? Yes, she'd work part-time, 25 hrs. a week.
Did Julie or Mark want to stay home? He doesn't remember which one it was.
Could it be Mrs. Jensen wanted to stay home and Mr. Jensen wanted her to work? Could be.
Did Mark resent attention being paid to son? He only remembers that she was fixated on son, not how Mark felt. There was some indication that her focus was on child over him was there.
"Mark wants his wife NOT to be brain dead." Do you remember this? He can't recall that, only notes from Julie's session.
In reference to chemical imbalance... if her situation at home wasn't improving at home, could it account for her feeling not to change?
Objection - sustained
Could it appear to be a chemical imbalance and it wasn't? Hard to tell due to family history, new child, etc.
Were there false negatives on the test Julie took? No, but test was very faulty.
Adult Children of Alcoholics - Did Julie fill out this form? Yes, but he doesn't recall using it in therapy.
Witness is shown Julie's answers to the questions. She reads the entire form!
Witness is shown Julie's patient information form.
What do you expect to be accomplished: "Improve attitude and self-esteem"
Anxiety or depression? Julie answered "No"
Julie ended counseling to seek marital counseling. He has never been contacted by any other psychiatrist or therapist for his notes? No
Albee asks the same questions he asked before and got the same answers.
Julie was not a candidate for in-patient care and had ability to call if she needed help.
More repetition of questions. Mr. Albee is trying to elicit that Julie was suicidal (even asks the therapist about cases where he didn't see a patient suicide coming).
Now, the therapist is saying that when Julie got worse, she was in a major depressive disorder.
Having now established that Julie had a "major depressive disorder" in the fall of 1990, which seem to have occurred where prior testimony says she got worse due to seasonal disorder, post-partum depression, lack of support at home from Mark, from Mark's desire for her not to be brain dead, from Mark's resentment of the time she spent with the baby, etc., etc., etc...., Mr. Albee is now asking the therapist "in general" questions about what people with major depression go through mentally. It all ends up with the implied conclusion that Julie just might have committed suicide in 1998?
There is a police officer who arrested Dillard in 2007 and to whom Dillard lied. Albee wants to call him to testify to Dillard's character. Dillard cried and said he didn't want to go back to prison!
It would be testimony which would impeach him on a collateral matter and he's already done so. This is extrinsic evidence.
Albee can prove he lied about crying!
I don't think the judge is buying this!
Albee is calling an ABUNDANT number of witnesses to prove Dillard's character!
Judge says he is the "worst" liar he has ever seen! And he says Mr. Albee has done a remarkable job of proving it!
Albee whines and stammers and insists that the ONLY way he won't present ALL these witnesses if the Prosecution stipulates that Aaron Dillard read the transcript of the police interrogation!
Cute smile from Albee and indicates that the topic will come up again!
Re-cross (Ms. Gabrielle)
She essentially points out that some patients leave his therapy and never have another bout of depression.
She asks if he's ever had a patient who left children behind, committed suicide, and frame the husband. No
Did Mrs. Jensen ever tell you she had an affair? No
Did he ever have contact with Julie after that? No
Is it unusual for a family physician to prescribe anti-depressants? No
Next witness: Retired clergyman, Oechler? (way fast speaker) Minister at St. Paul's Lutheran Church for 29 years.
Jensen family pastor. Very involved with the Jensen family. Knows Mark since he was 7. (Markie gives him a cute smile!) He met Julie Jensen about the same time (they were neighbors).
Pastor is asked to describe the Griffin family. He hesitates... says they were a close family in some respects. They had some dysfunction. It was a "feeling" he had. Was aware of the death of an older brother before he moved to Kenosha. He felt (can't state feelings) the father was the strong member of the family, controlling, strict. Mrs. Griffin seemed to be a nice lady, quiet. He can't say what he "felt" about her!
He presided over Mark and Julie's wedding. He attended the rehearsal dinner. Mrs. Griffin got sick, passed out and went into convulsions. It was caused by alcohol. She did not attend the wedding, she was in the hospital. He visited her there the wedding day.
He counseled them in 1991 when there were problems in the marriage. He urged them to see a marriage counselor; he felt he needed a professional. He was aware of Julie's affair.
He learned of Julie's death from Mark's mother. She asked him to come over. He stayed with them until 10 o'clock. Florence, Dan, Mark, Laura and her husband, the children were there.
Mark was very upset and distraught and concerned as to what had happened. Upset he couldn't get to his house, wondered why the D.A. was there.
He saw Mark the day of the wake. He spent about 20 minutes with the family prior to the wake and said prayers with them.
Mark was grieving. Mark was acting appropriately at the wake itself. He didn't see him act in any way that was inconsistent with grieving. He doesn't remember seeing him laughing. He would not consider laughing inappropriate in the grieving.
Oh! The laughing has to be in good taste!
The good minister then goes on to explain the usage of humor in the grieving process.
You try to make funerals into a celebration of life? Yes
Did Mark ask you if he should bring his girlfriend to the wake? No
Have you met Kelly Jensen? Yes He blessed the marriage
Did you know they were having an affair....
Is it appropriate for the father of the grieving man high five him the day after the funeral...
Is it appropriate to the grieving process to have the husband move his girlfriend into he house.... objection
No further questions!
Think Jambois got the point across!
Next witness: Laura Koster, Mark's sister. She works in IT at Abbot Labs. Husband Todd is a trader in Chicago, son Drake is a high school jr. They live in Pleasant Prairie.
She gives her life history. Her mother was a stay-at-home mom for the most part. She went to work when kids were in HS. She worked at Abbot for about 8 years. Their parents would take vacations on their own and the children and grandparents would join them later.
Mom's back it court.
Gives some of Mark's educational background.
Mark and Julie started dating after high school, though she's not sure exactly when. Mark and Julie attended college together until Julie quit. Julie came back to Kenosha and worked as a bank teller. Mark stayed in Oshkosh and worked as a painter. For some of her college career, she went to Oshkosh with her brother. Julie never got her degree. She thinks Julie had almost finished her degree in nursing.
Julie Griffin's college transcript admitted although Jambois doesn't understand why Laura would be shown it. The transcript says Julie was in attendance in Oshkosh.... 1984 Associate's Degree.
Jambois objects. Albee says, "somebody's going to read it."
Julie had attended Parkside, Laura didn't know. Albee attempts to read the document and Jambois objects. Albee reiterates, "somebody has to read it." Judge allows it.
Albee reads it... (NO! I WILL NOT NAME ALL THE COURSES HERE!)
She and Julie were best friends; she was like a "big sister." Julie considered her the closest female friend/little sister.
After Mark graduated he went to work in the stock brokerage business. He was living in Lake Bluff, Illinois. He and Julie hadn't ever stopped dating. They got married April 14, (doesn't remember the year) at St. Paul's in Kenosha.
She was present for the rehearsal dinner. Julie's mom had to be taken to the hospital due to convulsions caused by alcohol withdrawal. Afterwards, she talked to Julie about it and visited the mother in the hospital after the ceremony.
She spoke with Julie about her mother's alcoholism. Julie was sensitive to the issue and thought she had a risk factor to it and didn't want to succumb to it.
Albee wants her to pinpoint when they became "best friends." She can't, it evolved out of time.
Laura describes all the time they spent together as a "family" going on trips, "hanging around" (in the 1980's). She thought the marriage was good. They had their first son, David, in 1990. He was the first nephew and they spent a lot of time together. Mark and Julie were very happy about the baby.
Discussion of how long Mark and Julie lived in Pleasant Prairie
Laura has a son one year younger than David. (Drake)
Julie was working for a stock brokerage when David was born. She had a Series 7 license. She worked for a broker and she started reducing her hours, and eventually quit to stay at home. She took care of other people's children. She worked for about 6-7 years. Julie was very bright. She got incredible grades in college.
Laura said that Julie didn't want to work and quit when David was born. She watched Drake when Laura went back to work. She ended up taking a couple of other kids as well. Laura went back to work after 8 weeks of maternity leave. Laura worked full time for a year and then reduced her time to 4 days a week. This lasted until Drake was about 3. She and her husband decided not to have Julie take care of Drake anymore because she felt Julie "wasn't crazy" about taking care of him anymore.
An incident pushed them over the edge that caused them to take him out of Julie's home. Called her at work, angry, because she'd been struggling with the boys about going in the pool. It was frustrating for her to take them all out at the same time to use the bathroom. This day, Drake had taken feces and wiped it all over the bathroom wall. She called Mark at work and told him to go home. When she got there, Mark was there and the kids looked upset. The bathroom was clean.
Laura applied for a leave of absence and stayed home with Drake.
There was no odor of Pine Sol, and she and Mark believed the event never happened.
She and Julie remained friends. Julie was usually happy, but moody at times and "incidents." They usually got along great.
Some days, Julie was chatty, other days there was no welcoming in the conversation. (when she saw Julie twice a day to pick up and drop off Drake)
Laura didn't believe Julie kept her feelings to herself. She'd tell someone she knew what was on her mind.
Julie wasn't afraid to talk about how she felt about household issues with Mark. Julie ran the house the way she wanted to, Mark went out and worked.
Julie felt free to express disagreement with Mark over child rearing.
After she stopped working, Laura saw Julie more than ever. Spent a lot of time with Julie during the year she took off from work. When she went back to work, she only worked 3 days a week. The other days she and Julie would help out with the kids.
Their kids had activities together all the time.
Court Adjourned for the day!
This defense case is going to be very interesting. As I recall, there is a statement "out there" than Mark Jensen's sister made in which she said she believed her brother killed Julie. I believe it came from the forfeiture hearing in June. There was discussion of statements she made after the jury was dismissed for the day. It seems Mr. Jambois wants to get this in somehow, and of course, Mr. Albee is going to have to work to see it doesn't get in.
If anyone knows more about this than I do, please let me know!