Phil Spector Retrial: Day Forty-five, Jury Site Visit

Updated!
Alert! According to Harriet Ryan's latest report, famed pathologist, Dr. Vincent Di Maio is expected to take the stand this week.
February 19th, 2009

Defense Witnesses:
#10 Detective Richard Tomlin (LA Co. Sheriff, Homicide Division, lead detective on the case; under first cross)
#11 Marc Hirschfeld (Former casting director for NBC Entertainment Network; testimony complete)

Accredited Press inside the courtroom: Harriet Ryan of the Los Angeles Times; Linda Deutsch of the Associate Press for a short time in the afternoon.

Breaking News!
Before court resumed for the afternoon session, Judge Fidler informed the court that he has received a note from Juror #5 that, "He has been paying out of pocket to stay on the jury." He can no longer afford to do that. He also has to take care of his father who is ill. He is asking to be excused from further jury duty. At the end of court today before the jury was excused, Judge Fidler informed the juror that they would take up this issue Monday morning at 10:00 am.

Jury Site Visit
I arrive at the jury visit site at 9:10 am. There were remote video trucks from Channel 4 and Channel 7 already on the street. There were barriers across two of the streets to get to Spector's house.



There is one barrier across Grand View Drive and one across Alta Vista Drive, which dead ends into security gates at the rear of the property. Mr. Sprocket drove me and to keep me company. There are two female Alhambra Police officers manning the barricades to let residents in and out who live on Alta Vista. I see two Alhambra officers on motorcycles come down Grand View Drive.



And there were two officers on bicycles. All were dressed in dark blue uniforms.


When I first arrived I spoke to a woman who was walking her little dog. I told her I was here for the press report after the jury view. The woman said, "It's sad." I agreed with her, it's sad all the way around. She then said, "He killed her." We talked about Spector's earlier life and we both agreed how creative he was in his early years. I mentioned that he has struggled with mental illness (source: Mick Brown's Tearing Down the Wall of Sound). The woman replied that there was a "fine line" between genius and madness. She mentioned Vincent van Gogh as an example.

9:31 am: I see two women from the court's Public Information Office arrive. There's virtually no press here. I meet a lovely French woman, Valerie Cantie who has worked for Radio France for 19 years. Radio France is their National Public Radio and she is on assignment in Los Angeles for two years. She just arrived in January. I share with her some facts of this trial and the last trial.

10:11 am: I see some press walking down Grand View from the main entrance of the house and we find out that KTLA was up at the house. Last year, LA WEEKLY's Steven Mikulan and I were allowed to walk up Alta Vista to the rear gates of the property where we took some photos. This time, one of the PIO staff informs us that we would not be allowed to walk up Alta Vista to the back gate.

10:20 am: Last year, I came with Dominick Dunne and didn't have anything to sit on. This time I was prepared. Mr. Sprocket brings our double folding chair out from the trunk of the car and sets it up on the sidewalk.


10:49 am: A senior looking officer (a balding man in civilian clothes and an unmarked car) tells us that the jurors arrived at 10:10 am. We were hoping that the jurors would approach the house from this direction and we would get to see the vehicles pass but they must have entered from the other end of Grand View.

11:15 am: We get the notice that the reporters will be down in two minutes.

11:18 am: Judge Fidler passes in a car with darkened windows. And a moment later, the two vans with the jurors pass.



The press area is set up in the shade so that the sun isn't in Linda Deutch's eyes. Linda will speak first and Harriet will add some things after. (Mr. Sprocket was my "cameraman" and used our old Fuji FinePix S7000 to take a bit of video. The sound is terrible since we didn't have a microphone next to Ms. Deutsch. If you turn your sound up all the way you might be able to hear her. Unfortunately, you can hear my husband chewing gum next to the camera. It's just a short piece and if we had thought ahead, we would have put a much larger card in the camera to capture more film.)



(Text from the video clip.)
Linda Deutsch, Special Correspondent for the Associated Press:
"I covered the entire first trial. I've only covered a little bit of the second trial, but I went on both tours: first time and this last time. There is one huge difference. They have the actual chair that Lana Clarkson died in up there. Blotched with blood. Her blood. It has dark splotches on it.

The first time we went, they had a duplicate of the chair they did not have the actual chair. As I'm told by Allan Parachini it was brought in about 9:30 this morning and place in the mansion. It's not like it's there all the time. Um...

Allan Parachini: It's in evidence.

Linda Deutsch: Right.

Allan Parachini: It's an exhibit. It was transported by the Sheriff's Detectives.

Linda Deutsch: That was the biggest difference. Um, Also, jurors were not allowed to sit in the chair. The first time around they did sit in the chair. They asked to and they duplicated position(s) her body was in, things like that. They were not allowed to do that this time.

There were posters all over showing actual scenes. The scene of her death. Her body sprawled, bloody, in the entryway; it's right near the chair. There were, I counted a total of eight pictures inside the house and another two outside. These were blowups, on cardboard. The fountain that has been so much in dispute was burbling away as we arrived. And it was splashing pretty loudly. It's the same as it was last time. There was no change.

(I have to interject here. It may have seemed the same to Ms. Deutsch from her last visit, but there is no way to know if that's the way it was on the night in question.)

The car was not available but they had a duplicate (a Crown Vic) of the limousine which they arrived. That was placed right by the entryway. And I think Harriet observed what they did in car and she can tell you that. A couple of the jurors actually walked down the eighty some steps leading up to the house, from the opposite entrance and came back up.

And then they say the, foyer where she had died; they saw the bathroom that she had used; now very cleaned up but there's pictures there of everything that was in the bathroom that night.

(I don't know that it's been proven Lana Clarkson used the bathroom. We don't know "who" put the eyelashes on the top of the toilet tank.)

And they went into the living room. The only real sign, that Spector is even involved in the music business was a poster, a John Lennon poster and a, um, his baby grand white piano, which is in an alcove off the living room. And a catalog that was under a table that said 'More of the Sixties.' There was nothing else. Even the big, Elvis books and things that he had around last time are not there this time.

Everything is very pristine. Nothing added. And on the credenza, the famous credenza where supposedly the gun was in the drawer, on top of the credenza are two pictures of him with Nancy Sinatra, which may have been there that night.

(I believe Linda is correct. In one of Weinberg's cross examinations of Dr. Pena, Weinberg introduced into evidence a photo of the credenza with pictures on top of it. These may have been of Spector with Ms. Sinatra.)

When they first came in, the drawers to the credenza were closed. Then they realized they should have been open so they could see where they found the gun holster. So the first group of jurors had to come back in to see it open. They brought them in in groups of six. Six, six and the alternates. And then, after all this was over the Judge told them they could ask questions. And so they gathered in the driveway outside the door. And one juror appeared to be leading them, juror number 1, a woman. And she was getting their questions. And the clerk Wendy came out and gave them pieces of paper to fill out if they had questions, which they did.

And they gave them back. They asked eight questions about such things as, Is the car in the position that it was that night. Were the sconce lights on in the foyer, things like that. Those questions will all be answered this....(afternoon, in court)."
That's it for the video I have.

Linda went onto report that the jurors asked where Adriano's car was parked that night and they were shown where it was. Linda stated that compared to the first juror visit, these jurors were not as animated. Some jurors looked at the photos and compared.

Harriet Ryan of the LA Times then stepped up to the microphones and stated that a ninth question was asked. They wanted to know if they could sit in the car and they were told they would not be able to sit in the car. The car is not the same as well as the fact that the events surrounding the vehicle are not being recreated.

Spector was wearing a brown suit. This is in contrast to the last time when Spector and Rachelle were dressed very casually and wearing sandals during the first visit. As Harriet Ryan reported in her article, she talked about how some of the alternates measured off the steps that Spector would have had to have taken to step outside. Some stood on the steps and spoke to other jurors and also checking to see if they could see the chair. It appeared there was an emphasis on the chauffeur, that they were concerned with distances and focused on the photo displays in the room.

Linda Deutsch steps back up to tell us the time that was spent was exactly the same as the first visit, one hour. Mrs. Spector was on the premises but vacated prior to the visit. The home is a very formal home but it's not large inside. The downstairs rooms, the living room areas are quite small. The formal dining room was closed off with doors. We did not see the kitchen. There are a lot of crystal chandeliers.

Linda states that one of the jurors, the scientist was part of the first group that entered the house but he came back into the house as part of the last group and stood before the chair, looking at it for at least two minutes. He was really focused on the chair.

When the jurors gathered in the driveway, speaking by themselves for five to ten minutes they appeared to be led by juror #1. There were a lot of questions dealing with lighting by the jurors.

Linda goes over the questions the jurors had for the press. (I'll list those later since they were gone over back in 106 twice). I understand that the jurors had their notebooks and many took notes while they looked over the scenes, rooms.

After the press report was over, the barriers were taken down and Mr. Sprocket and I drove past the entrance to Spector's home. There was a huge police van out front. This probably brought all the big displays and the chair to the house.




Front entrance to Spector's home.


Back at the courthouse, I have the opportunity to ask Mr. Jackson who was it who requested that the chair Lana Clarkson died in be brought to the home. AJ stated that the prosecution requested it and that Mr. Weinberg did not raise any objections.

1:41 pm: Back inside 106 for the afternoon session. Judge Fidler and counsel go over the answers to the questions the jurors asked and decide on some answers.

1. Were the sconces outside (on the back entrance) lighted? YES.

2. Were the candles in the foyer on? NO, AS PER PHOTOGRAPHS/EXHIBIT.

3. Were the fountain lights on? (At first, the answer is UNKNOWN, but later, AJ states there is a photo that shows string lights were strung around the fountain.)

4. What type of wattage was in the exterior sconces? UNKNOWN.

5. Where was the driver's personal car? THE JURORS WERE SHOWN AT THE VISIT.

6. Was the position of the (stand in) limo position according to where the car was (on the night in question)? THE CAR WAS MADE TO APPROXIMATE THE PHOTO. THE PHOTO OF THE MERCEDES IS WHERE ADRIANO DE SOUZA PLACED IT THE NEXT DAY IN THE RECREATION WITH POLICE.

7. Was the position of the credenza drawer accurate? TODAY'S OPEN DRAWER WAS NOT MEANT TO RECREATE IT.

8. Were the doors to the formal living room open or closed? NO EVIDENCE TO THAT TO ESTABLISH ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

After the attorney's agree on the answers that will be given to the jurors, Fidler informs the court about juror #5. The first thing that I think of, is that possibly his employer can no longer afford to pay him while he's serving on the jury. Weinberg then asks Fidler if they can start a little later on Monday. He has a State Bar phone conference in the morning that's already been delayed twice. He asks for court to start fifteen minutes later on Monday at 9:45 am. Fidler immediately agrees. At the end of the day, Fidler tells the jurors to report back at 10:00 am, Monday morning.

Update!
Detailed testimony for February 19th, 2009, added Sunday, Februrary 22nd, 2009.

1:35 pm: I'm inside 106. Linda Deutsch from the Associated Press is here.

1:41 pm: Fidler goes over the the questions with counsel and the answers the jurors will be given. Harriet Ryan arrives.

1:50 pm: Fidler announces Juror #5's request to be relieved if his jury service. Right afterwards the jurors enter and the answers to the questions are read to the jurors.

Truc Do gets up to cross Detective Tomlin and she starts off with Stephanie Jennings.

Truc verifies that Detective Tomlin interviewed Ms. Jennings on January 5th, 2004. The interview was taped and the tape provided to the defense team.

TD: She believed Spector thought she called her mother and that the 911 operator asked her yes and no questions? He was present when Stephanie Jennings testified?

RT: Yes.

Truc Do reads Ms. Jennings testimony.

DW: Objection! To reading testimony.

Fidler: Overruled!

TD: Foundation your honor. Was there anything inconsistent with those two statements?

RT: No.

TD: In fact, it was consistent?

RT: Yes.

Truc now moves onto Dorothy Melvin and that it was the Pasadena police report that brought them to her. Melvin never contacted law enforcement. She was tracked down.

1:58 pm: Linda Deutsch leaves 106.

TD: And that's the same for all the other five women?

DW: Objection!

Fidler: To question? Overruled!

RT: Yes. Every one had to be located.

Truc Do establishes that Tomlin and his partner didn't call or let Ms. Melvin know they were coming. During the first interview, it was about 45 minutes. "Was it a Question and Answer?"

RT: No. [...] The interview was mostly narrative.

TD: After you spoke, you took some notes?

Tomlin states it was on a spiral note pad and the size of the pad, (the same I take my notes on) is entered into the record: six inches by nine inches.

TD: Then you wrote a report, three whole pages, eighteen paragraphs? [....] She testified for three days and her testimony took up (she states number of pages).

TD: Was her questioning as extensive? [...] Was that surprising to you?

RT: Based on my experience, no, not at all.

TD: What were you there to investigate.

RT: I was there to investigate the shooting death of Ms. Clarkson, to see if there was any similarity in the '93 incident.

TD: Did that affect the way you investigate?

RT: The primary focus was the 2003 incident.

TD: The focus was Lana Clarkson's death? [...] Mr. Weinberg suggested there were inconsistencies. [...] did she tell you that Mr. Spector backhanded her twice?

RT: Yes.

TD: Did she testify here under oath that she was backhanded?

RT: Yes.

Truc then goes over the events of that '93 incident.

TD: Did you find anything materially inconsistent in her testimony?

DW: Objection to question and to testimony being consistent inconsistent!

Fidler: Overruled! (Fidler gives an example to support his ruling.)

Weinberg asks to approach the bench. I look over at the defense and Spector has his usual orange drink at the table. Tran Smith is at the defense table manning the audio/video. In the gallery, Rachelle's eyes are closed and there is one supporter in the second row. This is a long sidebar. At the end Truc Do is speaking. I hear Judge Fidler say, "I agree. Objection overruled."

TD: So between her statement in 2003 (and her testimony) on material points of what happened to Ms. Melvin, was she consistent?

RT: Yes.

Truc asks about the Pasadena police report and the documentation in the report. Officer Russ specifically told then, that she wanted the matter dropped because of Joan Rivers and she didn't want the publicity.

TD: Officer Russ testified that they collectively decided not to arrest Mr. Spector. [...] They then reclassified the report from a crime to suspicious circumstances. [...] A crime report is when the officers at the scene determine there is enough evidence that a crime has been committed. An incident report is a "CYA" (cover your ass)?

RT: Correct. [...] Something suspicious happened and we document. [...] (A) Crime report has to be written where the elements of the crime were met.

TD: Have you in your experience or knowledge, that might justify an arrest but you decide to write it as a suspicious circumstance report?

RT: I've heard of it to occur.

Truc goes over Officer Russ's report.

2:15 pm: Harvey with the white hair enters. He shakes hands with the man in the second row.

Truc says something that I don't catch and Weinberg objects. "I haven't heard a question!" He then objects again with the same reason that he hasn't heard a question. Unfortunately, I did not write down the ruling.

TD: Suppose that if you were in that situation; those circumstances would you write it up as a suspicious circumstance?

RT: No. I would write it up as a crime report.

TD goes over Dorothy Melvin's testimony about her being struck (by Spector with the gun). Truc then moves onto Vince Tannazzo's, January 31st, 2007 tape recorded interview. Tomlin called Tannazzo from information he received from the DA's office, based on a message left with them about the Phil Spector case.

TD: Based on the information he, Vince Tannazzo gave you, did you think you needed to do anything further?

RT: No.

Truc then wants to introduce Vince Tannazzo's taped testimony as part of cross. Weinberg asks to approach. Judge Fidler asks for a transcript of the tape. AJ retrieves it. While Fidler is going over the transcript, I notice that AJ often stands with his hands behind his back. Weinberg is leaning on Fidler's bench. His right elbow is on the desk and his right hand is behind his neck. From what little I can overhear, it doesn't sound like Fidler is going to let them play the tape. At the bench I hear, "It's inappropriate." AJ continues to argue point. "You can ask it it's consistent," Fidler responds.

It's 2:26 pm and they are still at the bench conference. AJ continues to argue. I overhear Fidler say, "I understand that, but what I'm saying is..." It's ruled that the exhibit will be marked but not published at this time.

TD: You taped the interview and you were here when Tannazzo testified. You listened to his testimony. Mr. Weinberg said there is an inconsistency.

Truc reads from Tannazzo's testimony.

TD: Look at 17 & 18. 95-96, But he was not sure of the date? [...] He was certain of the words that came out of Mr. Spector's mouth?

RT: Yes.

Truc now moves onto the fountain. Tomlin arrived at the scene at 8:34 am. The next day there was a reenactment with Mr. De Souza, who placed the Mercedes at the scene. Tomlin had conversations with Mr. De Souza in the area between the house and the fountain.

TD: Did you understand each other? [...] Did you have to yell? [...] Does that sound, the volume of the fountain (on that tape) appear as loud? [...] Is that sound an accurate reflection?

RT: No. The individual that videotaped it was standing close to the car. That's why it sounded so amplified.

Truc goes over De Souza's 5:02 am 911 call. that it was first routed to California Highway Patrol and then routed to Alhambra Police. Brandon Cardella arrived at 5:04 am. De Souza was interviewed by Kennedy and Pineda at the scene. That's the first taping of De Souza. Truc then states that, "Now we'll go over each of five statements made by De Souza."

TD: Mr. De Souza was never allowed back into the home after he fled the scene to see Lana Clarkson slumped in the chair. When he was interviewed by by Kennedy, Pineda and Fortier, he correctly identified via observation that Lana was in a chair. He was never able to see after he fled but he was able to accurately describe 1/2 in the chair 1/2 on the floor? [...] Remember when Mr. Weinberg asked you about Adriano De Souza stating there was a lady on the floor and what did you make of that statement.....

DW: Objection! I only asked about Officer Cordella.

Fidler asks to look over the transcript from yesterday. Since they were looking over transcripts, the afternoon break is called.

During the break, I hear Weinberg ask to take a witness out of order that is here from otu of town and the witness doesn't plan on being here next week. During the break I'm informed that several times Spector took off his right shoe today.

3:03 pm: Tawni Tyndall arrives. A tall man I've seen before that some have identified as Dan Kessell enters 106. I've tried to find a more current photo of Dan Kessell and I have to say, the man looks more like a young picture of David Kessell that I found. I don't know who the supporter is. Spector comes over and talks to his supporter. They appear to be in an intense conversation. Spector has a big smile on his face while he's talking to him.

3:06 am: The jurors are brought back in. Juror #18 is having a coughing fit.

Marc Hirschfeld is called to the stand.


This is the only photo I could find of Mr. Hirschfeld. In court he was wearing a shirt with no tie or jacket. I did not see him smiling like this when he was on the stand.

Until recently, Hirschfeld was and executive Vice President of casting of NBC Television. There was no one "higher" than him. He cast for NBC TV. Prior to that he had his own casting business. He knew Lana Clarkson professionally, probably for about 20 years. He knew her, worked with her in television. He had hired her for guest roles in the 80's. "Who's the Boss" was one show he hired her for. She had auditioned and he kept in touch with her.

DW: Did you think well of her talent?

MH: Yes I did.

DW: Were there occasions where she asked for assistance, referrals?

MH: Assistance, advice.

Weinberg brings out that he hadn't cast her in a show in 20 years. She was someone that he kept in contact with. Verifies that Lana sent him a video of sketches, a demo reel of various clips. He received it in 2001 and saw it in his New York office. He remembers that it was delivered in a very clever, memorable way. "I thought it was very good," Hirschfeld testifies.

Hirschfeld states that he wrote her a note, something to the effect of, 'Dear Lana, Thank you for forwarding your demo reel. I think you're a wonderful actress. Keep in touch.'

DW: Did she ever ask you for permission to use your name?

MH: No.

DW: Did she ever ask to (deliver ?) a letter on her behalf?

MH: No.

Weinberg shows him the forged letter that bears his name. Hirschfeld testifies that he saw the letter before, one year ago. The letter is dated August 28, 2001.

DW: Did you write or sign this letter?

Hirschfeld answers no. Weinberg reads the beginning of the letter to him.

MH: The first sentence sounds like something I'd say. [...] I never cast Three's Company.

Weinberg reads more of the letter. 'I always believed you were (I miss the word.) You've done it kid.

MH: No, I never said that. (More of the letter is read, where it states he will pass this onto his superiors.) [...] No, I don't know what she meant.

DW: There was no one higher than you?

MH: No. [...] I was an Executive Vice President. It was not NBC Networks. It's NBC Television. (At the time, it was called NBC Entertainment.)

Hirschfeld states he never authorized this letter and never had anything to do with this letter.

DW: In your experience have you ever had anyone do this?

MH: No. [...] I'm sure there have been but it's not happened to him.

DW: What was your feeling (when you found out)?

MH: Well I was disappointed. [...] If I had known about it I certainly would have called her on it.

Either Weinberg asks or Hirschfeld states, "It's not what people in the industry would do."

DW: Would this have damaged her in the industry?

MH: That's hard to say. [...] It's certainly not helpful. [...] It's not proper etiquette.

DW: Is it fair to say that this could have come to your (attention)? [...] If you had knowns that this was sent to raise money?

If I am remembering correctly, Hirschfeld states he would not have been happy about that.

AJ steps up to cross Hirschfeld.

Hirschfeld states he lives in New York City. The letter was dated August 28, 2001.

AJ: You took umbrage? But it's not something you're stunned (about) but it's taken you by surprise?

MH: Nothing surprises me. However, it's uncool.

AJ asks about the letter he did write.

AJ: You knew her for 20 years? [...] You thought a lot of her talent?

MH: yes.

Hirschfeld states she was talented. He was happy to take her calls and give her advice.

AJ describes the reel and that it took some time doing it to put it together. Hirschfeld states it was professionally done. AJ asks about editing and if editors work for free. AJ asks him if he remembers some of the skits.

MH: As far as I recollect, I can't remember what all was on it.

AJ tries to jog his memory but he is unsuccessful.

3:26 pm: Spector's number one fan, the school teacher, Teresa (sp?) enters 106.

Hirschfeld remembers the packaging of the demo reel. AJ asks him a series of questions about the film possibly needing additional editing and that there was haste implied in the letter. AJ asks him if Lana asked for feedback on the reel. Hirschfeld felt the demo tape was in really good shape. He states that normally, he would phone back but since there wasn't a number with the reel, just an address, he wrote her a letter.

MH: I wrote her a letter in the most broad terms. (Then we would discuss more and draw it out.)

AJ: Were you encouraging?

MH: Yes, I thought she was talented. [...] The letter (he wrote) did say that he would keep her in mind if anything cropped up.

AJ: In regards to what she had done [...] outside of TV, were you aware of other things she had done in film, print work, modeling?

Hirschfeld states that her print work and modeling would not be included in any resume to him. That wouldn't be in there.

AJ: Just because you hadn't placed her in several years, that doesn't mean she wasn't working?

Weinberg gets up to redirect his witness. He asks if she went on auditions he sent her on, did she book?

MH: I had certainly gave her "at bats." No.

DW: Other than... [...] That letter is an outright forgery?

MH: Correct.

This witness is finished and Detective Tomlin retakes the stand for cross.

Truc goes back to the 911 tape of De Souza. On the tape he said, "lady on the floor and a gun in hand." And verifies with Tomlin that there was no lady on the floor.

TD: But even though Mr. De Souza was not allowed to return to the scene (while Ms. Clarkson was still there), without additional opportunities to observe, he correctly identified how she was in the chair and part on the floor? [...] In later interviews, De souza correctly described how Lana was without ever going back to the scene?

Detective Tomlin verifies this. Truc moves onto Officer Cardella and his report. He wrote it an hour and forty minutes later and he took no notes. Tomlin verifies that Cardella spoke to De Souza for three to five minutes and it was as an initial assessment, so that he could tell his responding officers what to do. He (Cardella) did not feel follow up was necessary.

Truc refers Tomlin to Cardella's testimony about his own report. Cardella states in testimony that he was "paraphrasing." Truc then moves onto the audio recording made at the front gates of Spector's home.

TD: Not once, but seven times, De Souza said, "I think I killed somebody." And only once said, "I think I shot somebody." Truc is now handing over transcripts to the jurors.

DW: Objection! This has already been handed out to jurors and played to jurors.

3;40 pm: Fidler overrules. As Weinberg is leaning back in his chair I seee his right forefinger is moving up and down over his lips. The audio is play for the jurors and it's very hard for me to hear it.

As portions of the tape play, I watch Spector. Spector appears to be staring at the table in front of him. The position of his body, I can only see the outline of his nose and lips. His hair covers his eyes and other parts of his face.

TD: After the sixth time that De Souza stated, "I think I killed somebody," It was Detective Pineda who asked him first. (She) asks, 'At what point does Mr. Spector say, I think I shot her?"

At that point, De Souza replied back to Pineda with the word "shot" in the statement.

TD: After that statement was made, he never said that again. [...] In the last excerpt, De Souza says, "I think I killed somebody."

Truc goes on to mention that Officer Kennedy said, "A couple of hours later you returned to the car." And De Souza corrects him and said, "No, it was two minutes later."

TD: Did you ever speak to Barbra Nelson about (De Souza's statement)?

RT: No.

TD: Did you ever speak to Detective Lillienfeld about De souza's statement?

(I'm not remembering what Tomlin replies here.)

We reach 4:00 pm and court is in recess for the day. Fidler informs Juror #5 that they will take up that issue, Monday morning.

After the jurors leave, counsel go over the Tannazzo issue. The prosecution wants to get that tape played. There is a short discussion about it and they mention transcript pages to go over. I believe Fidler tells AJ to bring him some cases to review. The audio they want to play is about 20 minutes.

And that's it for Thursday's testimony.