Updated!
(Photo of a very preggers Nadya Suleman retrieved from TMZ)
I am going to follow a path we don’t normally follow here at Trials & Tribulations.
We pride ourselves on writing about horrible crimes usually involving death and the worst of human behavior. With today’s “case,” no one has yet died and as of yet there are no charges for breaking any sort of “law,” but certainly this case is worthy of our discussion. It does indeed include the worst of human behavior, selfishness and plenty of delusional thinking.
Because the certifiably crazy mother of 14 Nadya Suleman has retained public relations counsel, consider this writer the PR counsel for the fine bankrupt State of California. I also encourage the reader to simply Google “Nadya Suleman” and be prepared to learn more than what I’ve offered here. To totally cover this story would take too much space, and I know you are here to read about Spector 2.0 (as am I!).
Thirty-three years ago, Angela Suleman gave birth to her only child, a girl named Natalie Doud. Today that girl calls herself Nadya Suleman because changing her surname to Suleman would “simplify things.” Suleman’s father Edward is from Iraq and works in Iraq as a translator or driver to support his wife, daughter and grandchildren.
Suleman claimed she had a lonely, dysfunctional childhood as an only child, and she always wanted a big family from the time she was a teen. Nevermind that she grew up with the undivided financial resources of her parents, was a an above-average student and a cheerleader in high school, and has lived with her parents since January 2000. In worker's comp documents she described her upbringing as "loving and supportive," not dysfunctional, as she claimed to NBC. Today her “dysfunctional” mother is a-okay to take care of Nadya’s collection of kids.
Nadya Suleman obtained a psychiatric tech license and began a career at Metropolitan State Hospital in 1997. Her career was short-lived because she was hurt at work during what is described as a riot in November 1999, suffering a back injury which she has successfully milked for nearly 10 years. She was dating and ultimately married a man named Marcos Gutierrez from August 1996 to January 2000. The couple completed a divorce in January 2008, and the divorce papers stated there were no children as a result of the marriage.
Marcos Gutierrez is not the sperm donor for any of Suleman’s children. Presumably insurance provided by Gutierrez paid for the births of the six older children?
IVF is not a Kaiser benefit; that treatment occurred in Beverly Hills at the West Coast IVF Clinic owned by Dr. Michael M. Kamrava. Unable to conceive naturally due to what has been described as three ectopic pregnancies, Suleman had a batch of babies cooked up in a petri dish with semen obtained from a male friend who is at times described as her boyfriend. Suleman’s oldest child is 7 years old. Her IVF pregnancies all occurred after her on-the-job injury when she was too disabled to work and unemployed, though she also claims prior to injury she worked double-shifts at the mental hospital in Norwalk, saving money or the IVF treatments. Suleman self-reports having spent nearly $100K on IVF alone.
Thus far media accounts do not say if all 14 of Suleman’s children were cooked up at the same time, in other words, multiple ovum were harvested and combined with the boyfriends’ baby batter and then a huge batch of embryos were frozen for future use.
After her work-related injury she attended Cal State Fullerton and graduated with a B.S. (fitting initials, don’t you think?) in child development in 2006. She also found time to give birth to the first six children (including a set of twins) with the help of a full-time child care provider, her mother Angela. Suleman continued college to finish a master’s degree in counseling, but quit in the spring of 2008, presumably to implant a half-dozen embryos into her eager lonesome uterus.
Actually Nadya is said to have wanted “just one more girl” as the reason for this last pregnancy. Did you know it is possible to determine the sex of the embryo? Why wasn’t that done in this case?
After filing for bankruptcy in March 2008 due to what has been described as a bad real estate debt, Angela Suleman presumably downsized into the 1500-square foot Whittier home that she has so generously converted into a child care facility.
Let me go off on a bit of a tangent here. The university Nadya Suleman attended is a California State University, and the fees are nowhere near $50K for a four-year degree. As I write this, fees at Fullerton are $1,260 for 6.1 or more units; graduate fees are $1,551 for 6.1 or more units. There is simply no way that a person, attending a CSU school, needs that kind of money to attend college unless they are also living on those loan proceeds. (Tuition is paid for by taxpayers’ dollars, hence the relatively low cost of attendance.)
This is from the Fullerton State website regarding college costs:
Typical school year budgets for California residents vary widely. Room and board allowances for nine months range from $3,474 for students living at home to $9,035 for students living on campus and $9,792 for students living off-campus. The allowance for books and supplies is $1,116. Total yearly costs include allowances for registration fees, books and supplies, room and board, transportation and miscellaneous personal expenses and range from $11,470 for a student living at home to $16,761 for a student living on campus and $17,788 for a student living off campus. Nonresident students must also allow for nonresident tuition in addition to the costs listed above.
No doubt Suleman lied about where she was living, claiming she needed a housing allowance yet living with parents since January 2000.
Because the back injury was suffered at work, Nadya Suleman was eligible to receive temporary total disability until such time as she is able to go to work or is declared permanent and stationary (P&S), meaning the injury has improved as much as it’s going to. At that point, a percentage of total disability is determined and the injured worker receives a cash award paid in installments.
As far as this writer can tell, for whatever reason, Suleman has never been declared P&S and had been receiving non-taxed TTD for nearly ten years. TTD was cut off last summer, but not before she’d received $165,000. Her TTD had been cut off in July of 2001 but she appealed to the Worker’s Compensation Appeals Board claiming she was still disabled due to pregnancy and a car accident she claims to have had while driving somewhere for treatment.
If a person is injured for more than one year (on-the-job or not), he or she is eligible for social security. That payment currently is around $900 a month. Thus far no one is talking about Suleman receiving this benefit, but she’s eligible to apply (and the government is likely to deny the claim, but there is a nice long appeals process that favors the persistent claimant). There is also SSI, supplemental security income, which is given regardless of work history to people with no income. I believe she is also eligible for CALWORKs, which means financial assistance for herself and her children while she is learning a trade. I’m not saying she’s getting it, but she certainly could go looking for it.
Three of Suleman’s children receive SSI; one is said to be autistic, and Suleman claims that the other two kids receiving SSI are receiving it “temporarily” and that their conditions are treatable/curable (one has attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and another speech delays characteristic of mild autism).
According to one newspaper source, a low-income family can receive payments of up to $793 a month for each disabled child. Three disabled kids equals $2,379. She also receives food stamps valued at just under $500 a month.
Nadya Suleman does not consider any of those checks she receives in the mail welfare of any sort, and she claims the aid is only temporary. As if a crazy person working as a counselor will ever earn enough money to support herself and 14 kids!
When the octuplets were born in January, Kaiser Bellflower and Suleman claimed that the bill was being paid. Yes indeed it was.
In California, pregnancy and labor equals instant emergency Medi-Cal coverage. Kaiser wasn’t donating services at all; it saw a wonderful opportunity for publicity and also the right to bill the fine taxpayers of California for this pregnancy, birth and neonatal ICU costs.
In 2006, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the average cost for a preemie infant’s hospitalization was $164,273. A singleton c-section cost $22,762. Nadya Suleman has been hospitalized on strict bedrest since October 2008. She is said to have stopped paying Kaiser premiums in November 2008.
Nadya Suleman is a case study in knowing how to manipulate a system fully to her benefit, and I predict the times may be ‘a changin’ in California.
There are “guidelines” that fertility specialists are supposed to adhere to, and every single fertility physician who has spoken to the media since the birth of these babies has said that Dr. Kamrava did not follow those guidelines. Physicians may implant large numbers of embryos in older mothers, hoping at least one “takes,” and those doctors strongly counsel women to undergo selective reduction should more than three implant. Any doctor who would stick six embryos into a woman who happily carried six prior babies after IVF is plain insane. The doctor no doubt knew Suleman was not only unemployed and single, but also supposedly disabled.
One physician did admit that he would have referred Suleman to counseling had she presented to his office after having the first six babies, but he also noted that the remaining embryos were hers to do with what she wished, and that a threat of a lawsuit could be enough to prod a doctor into doing something he or she knew was not ethically the right thing to do.
Nadya Suleman is said to be in hiding with her first 6 kids due to “death threats,” according to her PR team.
So what do you think will come out of this case? Mind you, I hate the government having to butt into so many things that should be a personal choice, but when taxpayers end up paying for those personal choices, I feel we deserve a say in things.
1. I believe that the fertility clinic “guidelines” which are in no way legally binding will be passed into law, giving real consequences to doctors who implant so many embryos into women, and especially into unstable women with no source of income other than taxpayers. That doctor needs to determine well before a pregnancy occurs just who is paying for the birth and support of a resulting baby.
2. If you are too disabled to work, you are no doubt too disabled to carry a baby. A singleton birth is tough enough if you have a bad back, and heck, if you didn’t have a bad back prior to pregnancy you will afterwards! Worker’s compensation will find a way to disqualify injured workers from TTD payments if they get pregnant while on TTD. Yes, it is a bit “big brotherish” but well within their rights to deny treatment if the injured worker goes against a physician’s advice. What physician in his or her right mind would advocate a gravely disabled woman risk her life by carrying multiple fetuses?
3. If Nadya Suleman is indeed collecting Social Security Disability for herself, no doubt the Social Security Administration will make things more difficult for legitimately injured people who absolutely cannot work.
4. Kaiser hospital had plenty of time to transfer Nadya Suleman and her gravid uterus to a county hospital. But I believe the hospital saw what they thought could be great PR and also knew it would be able to bill the state for the cost of hospitalization of Nadya Suleman and the eight babies. Because the hospital had time to transfer her to a public hospital that is by law required to take medically indigent patients, the state of California should not give Kaiser Bellflower a dime in reimbursement.
What laws would you like to see put on the books to prevent cases like this happening again, and what should the consequences be for Nadya Suleman, Kaiser Bellflower or Dr. Kamrava? Notice I didn’t even go into what is presumed to have been plastic surgery to make Suleman look more like another famous child collector, Angelina Jolie, who can afford to birth and adopt as many children as she wishes, at no cost to California taxpayers, or talk about Suleman’s perfectly-manicured nails that are clearly visible during the NBC interviews.
Taxpayers may have to cover octuplet mom's costs
Birth of Octuplets Puts Focus on Fertility Clinics
Octuplet Mom Filed Worker’s Compensation Claim
LA police to investigate threats to octuplet mom
Nadya Suleman's Excuses in Her NBC News Interview - Blame It on a 'Dysfunctional' Childhood
Normal Births Don't Require a Publicist - What's Wrong With Octuplet Mom Nadya Suleman
Update!
Addendum—readers, please check out this article at the LA Times:
Octuplets fertility doctor at center of another multi-pregnancy
Dr. Michael Kamrava is at it again: a 49-year old woman is pregnant with quads; she is now hospitalized on bedrest at County-USC after being transferred from Good Samaritan because she is uninsured.
And yet another update:
Octomom doesn’t have a PR rep anymore; she’s got an agent!
SoCal octuplets mother now has agent, no publicist
Wes Yoder, who represented the McCaughey 7 and controversial pastor Rick Warren, claims to be the oldest Christian-based talent agency in the United States.
I am Christian, and I’m not falling for it. Interesting tactic though, to play on the publics' faith. I hope it doesn't work. I'm assuming he took on the case because somewhere there is indeed money other than the welfare she's bilking out of the state and federal governments.
The pro-bono PR agency got sick of dealing with death threats (and I believe it was wrong to make any sort of death threats to anyone in this incident!).
UPDATE! Updated story links:
The Irresponsibility of Dr. Michael Kamrava
The "Crimes" of Nadya Suleman
No "Jon & Kate" Deal for Octo-Mom"
Posts
66 comments:
Thanks for posting this because it's a crime in the making. Thanks.
Let me add this suggestion concerning who should foot the bill for Nadya's litter....Send all future bills for anything and everything to Dr. Kamrava. He's the one who irresponsibly implanted all those embryos into her "eager lonesome uterus". In a way, it makes him a responsible co-father. Besides, as a Beverly Hills doctor, he's got a gazillion extra dollars so he can afford it.
Bravo, bravo! Thank you so much CaliGirl9, for shedding a bright light on octo-mom's history and blatant manipulation of the system.
CaliGirl9,
Thank you so much for taking on this "case." It may not be a crime, but it should be.
This woman has used the system to such an extreme it has to be illegal somewhere along the line.
Her irresponsibility towards her children is heinous. She already had six of which three have special needs. There is no way I can see her taking care of 8 delicate babies, some of whom may also have special needs down the line and managing to finish her master's degree so she can not earn enough to take care of them.
My heart goes out to her parents. They have enabled her to do what she's been doing, but I heard they begged the doctor not to do the latest procedure.
What was that doctor thinking?
Please keep us up to date on this. I so appreciate your time and efforts.
The nicest thing I can say about this subject:
I can recall when my cousin had premature twins, the hospital was very strick about cleaning hands, even nurses were banned from wearing nail polish. It was a must to scrub our hands, remove nail polish and any fake nails and scrub, srub, scrub, to prevent infections that can kill such young babies. Needless to say my I was shocked to see the videos of a certain person's finger nails while touching the babies. Maybe times have changed, I could be wrong, but for goodness sakes, 14 kids and we have time to get our nails done...
Stef
If you have to have a complete psychological work-up to have a sex change, why not the same for someone wanting an instant nursery-school? At least with the sex-change, there is little chance of over-burdening the taxpayers with anything.
This story seems to be a tragedy in the making. I don't see how this woman thinks she can take care of 14 children. From the photos I've seen of the small home she lives in, she doesn't seem to have been able to take care of the 6 she had before the octuplets were born! How on earth is she going to manage when the 8 come home from the hospital?
Unfortunately, I think the taxpayers of California are going to end up supporting this woman and her children.... **sigh**
The doctor who implanted the babies should be made fully responsible for paying for their care. Otherwise, I can predict that the state will be taking them away and putting them into foster care for neglect soon enough.
There is now a Nadya Suleman Family website where they are soliticing for donations through her PR firm. This is disgraceful. I find the fact that anyone would want to work as her PR person disturbing. In her interview with Anne Curry, Nadya kept saying that she was being a responsble mother. Right....this woman is a few bricks short of a full load. Maybe DFS will take the children and provide them with a good homes.
Elizabeth
I'm not overly fond of Child Protective Services, or whatever the name is in California..but the home these babies are going "home to" should be checked out. A 1500 sq.ft. house for 14 kids and a mom and granny??? This woman needs to lose custody of these babies and have them put up for adoption where they stand a chance at an intact home with enough resources to meet their needs. This woman is flat out crazy and the doctor(s) that went along with this need to lose their licenses. They also need to be made to contribute financially to the these kids. When it hits their pocket, they may find themselves being a little more socially responsible. This woman and her "litter" mentality will be fine, but the children are the innocent victims of this whole mess.
I agree with everything said here.
Another thing that really irks me is the number of truthfully disabled folks who have to fight to get by made even more difficult because of these who know how to "use" the resources for the disabled. If this is not a crime it should be. Perhaps the doc who signed off on her disability should also be investigated.
Thank you for this story. We shouldn't be paying a dime for her, she chose this. Also, at least 3 of her children attend a local private school in the city at a cost of at least $5000 per child. Are we taxpayers paying that as well? FYI, the hospital is actually Kaiser Bellflower.
Great entry Cali! Thanks so much for giving us a full report. It's mind boggling how this woman has been able to manipulate the system for so long. I think she and her doctor need to be held accountable! The Beverly Hills IVG doctor is practicing in a wreckless fashion. Does he think he's God? And it's sad and shameful that these innocent babies were brought into this world under such circumstances. They're the ones that will truly suffer from this while the mother is out getting her nails done, getting plastic surgery, getting her masters, doing talk shows, etc, using tax payers dollars! Let me tell you...after hearing this I would be HOT STINKIN' MAD if I was a good tax paying Cali State resident! I truly hope that this will prod BIG BROTHER to stop and take a good and serious look at how they are spending tax payers money. Her case is out of control ridiculous, and while maybe not to the degree Nayda manipulated the system - there are thousands more out their milking the system like she has.
Thanks again for the great write up. Great job.
Kitty M.
Well done CaliGirl9! Thanks for your efforts.
So, now, Dr. K (for Kwack) has helped a 49 year old woman become pregnant with quads. She was transferred from one hospital to another "BECAUSE SHE LACKS INSURANCE". This is pure and utter insanity. Dr. K should be made to pay for this. Aren't we, as taxpayers, paying enough now that the government is bailing out every irresponsible company and person who took out those crazy upside down mortgages, among other irresponsible spending? OMG, we will soon be a socialist country...although, I think we may be one already!!
Elizabeth
My local 11 p.m. news even had a blurb about Dr. Kamrava’s next high-profile multiple and her lack of health care coverage.
I am willing to stick my neck out about this: I bet the California legislature/senate comes up with some sort of solution that includes prepaid proof of insurance coverage for the entire pregnancy and perhaps several months after birth. I honestly believed that IVF was very expensive but obviously it’s not that expensive in that at least two women who were/are not at all financially stable were able to pay for it (in the case of grandma mom, she even bought young fresh ovum!). Before anything is implanted, premiums need to be prepaid for the duration of the pregnancy, period.
There are complications when taking drugs that induce ovulation and make the uterus a more hospitable place for embryos. In Suleman’s case, it seems that at that time she had coverage, but I don’t know about grandma mom.
And don’t get mad at me for calling the 49-year old grandma mom, I’m a couple years older and I promise I would jump off a cliff if I found myself pregnant. There is no way at my age I’d ever seek to carry a baby with the enormous potential for complications, let alone my bad back. There is a laundry list of age-related complications and I predict she pops up with at least two (I’m not counting the irritable uterus chock full of infants as an age-related complication, though it seems she’s taken to her bed much sooner than a 20- or 30-something mom would). She faces preeclampsia/high blood pressure, diabetes, heart failure, Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (DIC), and the complications of bedrest (deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism come to mind) and ultimately a c-section (major surgery).
I also predict very strict age-related guidelines for implantation and doctors having to take on more responsibility for bad outcomes. I do hate having government stick its nose in health care, I really do, but two medically indigent women finding the cash to have IVF and then expect taxpayers to happily pay for their decision? Nope. These two have messed it up for any family that comes behind them, but isn’t that always the way it is—a couple of fools spoils things for the rest of us?
THIS WHOLE SAGA GETS MORE SICK BY THE DAY. I HOPE CALIFORNIA CHILD SERVICES TAKES THEM ALL AWAY FROM THIS WOMAN AND THAT THEY CHANGE ALL THE LAWS IN CALIFORNIA BECAUSE OF THIS. GOV. SCHWARTZENEGGER MUST BE FUMIN' MAD ABOUT ALL THIS, AND I'M SURE THAT'S PUTTING IT MILDLY!!
Kudos for posting this, CaliGirl9, you obviously did your research and seem to have uncovered facts that have not been readily apparent in the mainstream media reports.
Nadya Suleman should have been a train wreck readily identifiable to all medical professionals involved. This woman clearly is a narcissist very skilled in manipulating her family, medical and governmental authorities. Here stated reasoning to have the octuplets in the recent NBC interview was a poor excuse for her completely selfish and self serving behavior.
She is a mental case, no doubt, but a also a mental case that has the possibility of being very dangerous.
The state should tell Kaiser to go take a hike of they (Kaiser attempt to recoup expenses from the tax payers), and the fertility doctor needs to face sanctions.
But let's not forget her publicist, a crass opportunist of the lowest order also.
This is a great report. I do think that since she was on bed rest for what? 2 months? people should forget about her manicure. It's the least of anyone's worries.
I'm intrigued by the fantasy life she's concocted with Angelina Jolie.
I didn't have time to do it today or yesterday, but I've been meaning to call Child Protective Services to report her. I'm hoping somebody else will
P.S. Great work.
Thank you to everyone for the complements you’ve given me regarding my write-up of this case.
My professional background includes working as a registered nurse, being an injured worker who has dealt (and continues to deal with) the worker’s comp system in California, and also a worker’s compensation case manager.
Although my undergrad degree is journalism-based (public relations), in cases like these I understand a bit more than the average reporter. It is my hope that an aggressive investigative journalist bites into both of these cases to ferret out abuse in the welfare, worker’s compensation and social security systems. I knew there was so much more to this story from the very beginning; I knew there was much abuse of the safety net system that has been put into place for people who are truly down on their luck.
As a PR practitioner, I could not represent this woman in any way, shape or form.
Let me offer some more food for thought: I checked out child care costs for Fullerton State. We all need to be outraged over the cost for 14 children in day care:
http://asi.fullerton.edu/cc/faq.asp
And yes, there is state-subsidized child care that Nadya Suleman will no doubt utilize. Think of the truly needy families who are trying to better themselves by education (working on their undergrad degrees) who will not be able to utilize child care services because the Suleman children are underfoot and taking all available resources.
The fact that Angelina Jolie has gone on record saying she'd received letters from this nutcase and that Jolie herself is skeeved out about this entire incident says plenty.
My guess is that Nadya was also getting subsidized daycare at her school. I went on their website and the cost would be pretty expensive for multiple children. They offer subsidized care depending on income. No doubt Nadya twisted the truth to take advantage of that also. The honor system doesn't work for dishonest people.
Isn't it obvious that Nadya Suleman should be dependent for her every single future penny by earning it. Working for the fertility doctor that chose to do this to her.
Today Nadya spent her busy day as every penniless mother of 14 getting an Indigent Special manicure and window shopping for Wiis.
Just to remind you tha ther donation site takes Paypal.
She also gave an interview to an exclusive interview ($$$) to a British tabloid were she claimed her church had 50 to 60 women on tap to help her. The church said they never heard of her.
And then there are the 500 death threats. Probably from everybody on her block who has to think about their property values.
I guess the British don't have to fact check their claims.
The real long-green earner here will be Nancy Grace . Now that Kaylee is in the ground Nancy has found herself 14 live ones with no expiration date. That means a blank check for Nancy Grace's future screech about a fame-leech.
Angelina Jolie spent the day thinking about changing her name to Angie Pitt-Croft and getting a very short blond hair cut.
And chatting with her squadron of lawyers on retainer.
-gala1
CaliGirl9 check this out!
http://www.winnersusedrugs.com/2009/02/nadya-suleman-is-really-dedicated-mom.html
It's Nadya getting her nails done again TODAY Feb.13th!!
How is she going to take them anywhere?
There is no car out there that fits 14 child seats.
Even a 12 passenger van doesn't work.
I wonder if she ever thought about the little details or if she thought God would help out
The woman is a train wreck. My mother works for the St. Vincent DePaul Society at her church and has seen hundreds of people over the years on food stamps, welfare, or other forms of government support. The vast majority of these cases are not insane scammers like Nayda. But every once in a while they would encounter someone who was going from church to church with lies, crazy stories, fake addresses you name it. So the same thing happens with churches and charities. My mother and the rest of the volunteers learned how to spot the crazy ones and cut them off.
There definitely needs to be stronger laws regarding IVF. And I don't know enough about CA benefits but obviously Nayda found every crack and hole to milk the system. Some states have stronger laws to prevent these abuses. Personally I think the state and feds need more boots on the ground to actually look into these cases. If the IRS can nail a person to the floor (and we know they can) for messing up on a tax return, then if a family is receiving a large amount of state and federal money a case worker should investigate them. If the family doesn't want the government in their business then they shouldn't ask for assistance.
Nayda gives truly disabled people a bad name. She is a disgrace!
Manipulators tend to fell prey to their own devices. Funny how this little cunning parasitive bitch managed to manipulate all the systems and her own 'abusive' parents around her, but fall prey to her imaginery self-identification as Angelina Jolie.
Let the Doc and the PR company pay x14 Child Support and other costs!
-Vlad.
adoption is the only answer.
Nadja is sick, sick, sick. I think she's a classic NARCISSIST, and I wish a psychiatric professional would weigh in on this opinion.
I agree with previous posters that she's also a SCAM ARTIST and a PARASITE (good choice of words) on society of the first order.
Anyone who donates to her is almost as out of their mind as Nadja is. Please, don't give her a penny or a diaper! And I don't want to hear "But think of those babies now that they're here!" I AM thinking of those babies. If you refuse to support their crazy mother, then maybe social services will have the opportunity to place them in decent homes. Don't become a voluntary Nadia Suleman "enabler."
I strongly support that the government steps in and takes these children and puts them with forster parents and takes all rights from their mother. She, the mother, needs to sterilized before she goes out again and has more babies. Let her work for her living and no tax payers money or donations in her pocket.
I would love to know what Nadya's parents think of this mess. It sounds to me like they are stuck holding the bag as well. Maybe they can shed some insight on the situation that would aid in DCFS being able to take these children and put them up for adoption so they stand a chance in life. They are not like puppies for goodness sake. She won't be able to dump them when they become too much for her. Good grief!!! As if California did not have enough to worry about!! I hope someone can find a sensable solution for those babies, none of which contian the words Nadya Suleman.
"This woman needs to lose custody of these babies and have them put up for adoption where they stand a chance at an intact home with enough resources to meet their needs." "Adoption is the only answer"
You all seem to be the voice of morality for California and the entire world. Where is your compassion? There are women in the US who are on welfare who have as many children, they just have one after another. Should we take all those kids away from them too? Should we just go around taking kids from homes because WE think it's the right thing to do?
Try thinking about the children, and not your anger and bitterness towards someone you do not know.
Seriously, you people scare me.
I scare you, Susan? ME? Married mother of one, job-holder, homeowner, taxpayer, good neighbor, independent, my-kid-isn't-a-burden-on-society little ol' me???
Um, okay.
Sorry, but I'll reserve my "compassion" for those who actually DESERVE it - not a mental whackjob who's purposefully going around having litters of children she KNOWS she cannot possibly take care of financially or emotionally.
I do feel badly for her 14 kids, but the best we can hope for is that they'll end up in homes with people who love them for who they are, and not the notoriety they can bring. Nadja is using those kids for her own sad and twisted emotional needs and now - trying to profit from them, too.
Don't berate me or anyone else for being horrified at this woman. We "judge" each other every hour of every day. That's what civilized societies do, whether you like it or not. There are social compacts and unspoken rules that we live by to get along with each other. This nutjob has broken just about all of them. She should have compassion for those of us who are going to end up taking care of her problems. And she might want to start with her own exhausted parents! "Compassion", indeed . . .
I am asking all future comments be respectful to each other or they will not be published.
I have 3 kids, 2 with "problems". One child has a severe chronic disease that she almost died from. Our bills for her medical care last year alone was almost $30,000 (even with good insurance). It is all paid off, by us. Our other special needs child is autistic, mute and has multiple medical conditions. I had to quit my job to care for her full-time. What I want to know is, how can Suleman get SSI for her "speech delayed" child and MY child was turned down for SSI??? MY child who cannot speak or care for herself or use the toilet at age 10? But yet her kids with ADHD and a speech delay get SSI? This is why people who DO qualify are turned down. Now, I am not complaining because my kid was turned down, I just am shocked that her kids were accepted for things that are not disabling! SSI is for PERMANENT disabilities! And since when is food stamps not aid?? And I thought you had to show proof you are poor to get food stamps? I hope the state sees that she paid $100K on IVF while getting food stamps, they hopefully will cut her off and make her pay it back! Maybe she'll get prosecuted and then these poor kids can go to homes and be cared for properly. If they don't go after her for fraud and working the system I will be surprised....
Susan,
I don't agree with welfare moms popping out babies either but at least they are not PAYING $10K+ each time to get pregnant!
Hello!
Anonymous, the social security system rewards persistence. Keep trying! There is an appeals process and I believe eventually your case goes before a judge (third try). You do not need a lawyer; you need to be very meticulous in your paperwork. If that's still the procedure, your and your child will appear before the judge and usually at that point it's a go.
I believe you are also entitled to some sort of benefit in being the caregiver of a disabled child, but I’m not positive.
I think that the Worker’s Comp system will find a way to get Nadya Suleman … the way the system works nowadays in California very much favors the employer/comp carrier. I also predict this case will be responsible for further legislation that favors a comp carrier when dealing with a perpetually “disabled” injured worker who becomes pregnant through whatever means. If you think about it, it really isn’t fair to the employer to keep paying disability if the injured worker isn’t disabled enough to not become pregnant and carry a pregnancy, let alone a litter.
Thanks so much for this Info. It floors me that this is going on. Since when did state and taxpayer's pay for children with ADD? My youngest child was born with 3 congential heart defects and she was turned down because she was born here in the US for SSI and Health coverage.Also because heart problems is considered pre exiting. But yet a person who goes into this whole thing knowing there are going to be health issues with her children just to get a check in the mail. And DSHS doesnt question this at all? What is our world coming to? My husband works his butt off we pay taxes and I stay home. We have never asked for a dime from the state besides a little help so my baby could seek medical care without question of where we could go. I guess I should have decided to have a million children, sit on my butt and collect more money doing nothing than I would working.
CaliGirl, I'm in awe of your reportage and background. THANK YOU from the East Coast!
And like you, I'm in the age range of Grandma Mom and would throw myself over the cliff with you if I found myself expecting even one babe. My tubes have stayed tied since 1994.
I agree with most of what you are saying here but cannot agree with the cost of college. I am currently in college (Eastern Michigan University) and pay roughly $6,000 per semester (15 or more credit hours. This does not include parking tags ($75) or any books/materials. I find it hard to believe that California (a place with a much higher cost of living than Michigan) would charge so much less for their tuition. Just thought I would say so. Other than that your info seems legit.
Curious:
I will answer for CaliGirl9 on the education issue. Education is that cheap here. It Really Is. For registered residents, tuition is subsidized by the State. Out of state or foreign students pay at a higher unit rate.
It seems there is enough evidence for authorities to investigate Nadya Suleman for potentially fraudulent statements in her applications for food stamps, workers' comp, disability, SSI for a child with ADHD, student loans, etc. If she misrepresented her income, assets, expenses or actual level of her own or her child's disability, she should be subject to the penalties prescribed by law. Were any doctors complicit in helping her exaggerate her own or her child's disability?
It is incomprehensible that someone poor enough to qualify for food stamps, which are one form of Welfare, would have the means to pay for at least 6 IVF cycles at a self-reported cost of $100K.
Since after her injury, she was able to attend college and earn a degree while concurrently bearing and caring for 6 children, it does not seem she was too disabled to be employed.
It should be noted that she places her vulnerable premie neonates to known potentially deadly infection risk by wearing artificial nails when handling them. Most hospital infection control policies prohibit artificial nails for staff in the NICU, OR and ICU with an increasing number prohibiting them in all patient care areas. The event that seems to have brought the issue home to infection control professionals occurred in a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit when an outbreak of Pseudomonas aeruginosa was partly attributed to a nurse who wore artificial fingernails. Search for hospital infection control NICU artificial nails for more info. Here are two links:
http://www.musc.edu/catalyst/archive/2002/co1-18infection.html http://inside.duke.edu/article.php?IssueID=76&ParentID=5404
I'm surprised that Kaiser allows her to wear her acrylic nails while handling them. Perhaps their infection control standards don't meet with CDC guidelines.
Nadya is getting what she wanted... attention! It is disgusting that a doctor would continually help this women get pregnant, six children by IVF alone is a bit much, and now 8 more! This doctor should be held responsible.
The news stations are not helping much by continually airing the Angeline look-alike interviews. Anyone that gives this women attention is just as crazy as she is. And donations on her family website... get real folks!
If Nadya is even half the "good mother" she claims to be, she will give these innocent newborns up for adoption. Has anyone ever heard of the word responsibilty? When is the US going to wake up and hold people responsible for their actions?
Curious, education is very affordable in the California State University system; the University of California system is a bit more pricey.
I checked Fullerton State’s fees last week and they were $1600 per semester (6.1 units or more). Assuming the child development degree is a 124 unit major (too lazy to check), you can easily finish that degree in four years (eight semesters).
Out-of-state or foreign tuition is very expensive.
Students do not pay tuition. “Fees” include on-campus health care, and those funds are also used for student body activities (ASB). You’d be amazed how much money ASB on each campus has.
The parking fees at SJSU (where I attended) are $120 a semester (rip-off with no promise of parking) and again I’m too lazy to check Fullerton’s rates.
Fees for grad school are somewhere in the neighborhood of $750 per unit; 30 units finishes a master’s degree in most cases. So add that to Octomom’s loan costs, if she’s not cut off outright from federally-guaranteed loans. She can always get loans from those places on TV that have super-high interest and don’t require a FAFSA (Free Application for Student Aid).
I do not know if Octomom attended community college at any time, and that’s really, really cheap. Right now classes are $20 a unit, and it’s super-easy to get a fee waiver so you pay nothing whatsoever. Fees for out-of-state or foreign (not non-documented illegals) is somewhere around $180 a unit. Still cheap!! Illegals have AB540 and pay the same tuition as residents.
The only way you can borrow more money than what the fees cost if you are also borrowing a living allowance, for example, living in the dorms, or requiring assistance in renting housing. So to get as much money as she’s already got, she’s lied about her housing situation, and was living rent-free (according to some sources) but claimed she needed housing assistance above the loans for fees. I did not ask for a housing allowance with the loan I took out for my master’s degree.
In other words, Nadya Suleman lied on her FAFSA form.
And I am sure she’s not paying the interest on that loan either. You can defer paying everything until 6 months after graduation, but that interest does add up! I’m not sure what the going rate is right now; my loan’s interest rate is 5.5%.
Ouch! about your Eastern Michigan University tuition & fees!
No one seems to be talking about the biological dad, i.e. Mr. Voluntary Sperm Provider.
Nadya said she researched the law and was able to assure him that he would bear no legal responsibility for children resulting from his sperm donation.
This may be true as I am unfamiliar with the law, however it would seem that this law is intended primarily to encourage anonymous sperm donation to help infertile women -- to protect men from subsequent financial liability.
However Mr. Sperm Donor supposedly knew that his "donation" was going to a specific woman without financial means to create an increasing number of children.
If he had slept with her and she became pregnant, he would have had some financial liability. But this apparent sperm donation loophole let him repeatedly chose to create children with her that he does not have to support financially -- we taxpayers must bear the burden of his 14 children.
Supposedly he is a boyfriend who intends to have some involvement with the kids.
This seems to be one of the biggest abuses of existing law in this whole saga, yet I have seen no one bring it up.
I think the law needs to be changed so that a man who donates sperm for a specific woman is not automatically exempted from financial responsibility if she is unable to support the child(ren) that results.
I'm also wondering if her legal husband has any financial responsibility since I believe he is legally considered the father to children born during the marriage even if he isn't the biological dad.
She sure has created some legal conundrums.
Your Info readout was stellar-- it syncs with my suspicions.
As an East Coast Guy, I am amazed both at Octomom and the EXPLOSION of outrage. Amazed-- because I didn't think it would appear. Usually, once pictures of wee-babes are waved about, everyone usually melts into "Aww, how cute!"
But not this time.
Here's a guyz perspective--
We really don't think twice when we hear or see another Mondo-Largo Family, though we wince internally for the Hubby because we know he's gonna have to literally work 'til he drops!
But hey! If he's willing to punch that clock and she's willing to keep 'delivering', we just tip our hats and say "Make sure the Insurance Policy's Paid up, Bro!"
But Nadya's an odd one. Not being a single mom with no income, no-- it that she really DOES want a huge brood, and the whole 'working' of the system happened to just fall into place for her. Oddly enough, I still can't quite pin the label of 'Calculating Welfare Queen' on her.
It doesn't fit totally. She's really a 'Not All There' gal who wants lots of children. {Us Guys see these kinda women from time to time--and usually run across the street to avoid them!) In fact, it's her 'Delusion' that working the System.
And here, time and fate has allowed her to hit the bureaucratic 'sweet spot' from the beginning.
But once her span of fame is up, the full load of bricks is gonna hit and I suspect the children WILL be taken away just on account of her unravelling under the pressures to come.
What's good for the rest of us? This case will shine a light on IVF on the one hand. . . AND on the unpleasant questions of the actual Right of Single Women without Income to have X-number of children on the Public Dime.
Yes-- I know, unlike Octomom, most of these women have a deadbeat a-hole to blame. But remember that that's the purpose of DATING: You get to KNOW the guy. And if you think a guy smells like a dog: Hello, you're usually right-- He's a Dog. And getting pregnant on him generally never changes him.
And if more women here in NYC kept such deadbeat guys OUT of their beds, there'd be a lot less unplanned births on the public dime.
Still, I breathe a sigh of relief as a NY taxpayor knowing that single girls on welfare won't be lining up in front of Upper East Side Fertility Clinics after this!
There's no 'Right' to IVF here-- unless you've got the moola UPFRONT.
Nadya CHOSE to bring to this world FATHERLESS children. She was married and left her husband "because she wanted kids more than she loved her husband" (???)
She allegedly refused to marry her unnamed "boyfriend" and only wanted him to donate sperm so she could be a single mother and "have the babies' unconditional love all to herself".
Now, she deprived 14 kids - TEN of them BOYS - of having a father in their lives.
She wants kids to "unconditionally love her".
Being a mother is about GIVING love, not demanding it.
"Octo-mom"??? She is octo-WOMB.
If she is truly a mother, if she truly loves those helpless babies, she can do a truly loving, unselfish thing by getting them adopted into responsible, loving, financially stable families where EACH of them can get enough attention and resources.
But she won't do so, at least not voluntarily. I really hope CPS/HHS steps in and does the right thing this time.
I hope even more that CA Workers Comp Board and Fullerton SU investigate her case for possible fraud in receiving WC disability benefits and student financial aid.
The more and more I read about this story the more disgusted I become. I HATE the fact that I am a responsible American and person who is going to get stuck (along with all other tax paying citizens) with her damn 14 kids. She shouldn’t been allowed to have 6 in the first place. There need to be stricter guidelines or laws on fertility treatments. Had there been some sort of metal counseling before anyone (degree or not) could see that she is at no way capable of taking care of these kids.
The most unfortunate aspect is the kids are really the ones that suffer the most. I think adoption is the only way each one of these kids are going to get the devotion and dedication a child needs. I also am curious what these kids will say when they are 18 or so or learn about what their biological mother (hopefully by that point they all would have been adopted to responsible parents) did to conceive them.
Thanks for writing this story, it might not be a crime yet but hopefully it will be.
Just when I thought I couldn't be shocked by anything ever again, a woman who had already given birth to six children...without an income...or a partner...or a home...or a plan, decides to have eight more...without an income...or a partner...or a home...or a plan. It boggles the mind. Forget the "it takes a village to raise a child" philosophy...she gave birth to a village! So now, it is going to take the entire state of California to raise this 'village' she has so carelessly created.
Those who suggested the IVF doctor who assisted in her carelessness should also assist in paying for her medical bills are right on! After all, if she didn't have an income when she was inseminated, he must have had to waive his fee for the procedure...hmmmmm... I wonder...
And please don't knock Angelina and Brad for having a ton of children. They can afford to support them financially and hire high quality private nannies. Plus, they spend a lot of time, energy and money helping others, whereas Octomom doesn't care about anyone else but herself...oh yeah, and her 14 children (so she claims). Angie and Brad may not be there 24/7 for their children, but many parents cannot spend every moment with their children because they must work to pay for their survival.
One would think that a Psychology Major would be able to recognize her own insanity.
Although the year is young yet, I am nominating that vile octomom for Player of the Year.
Since the state of California is going to have to pay for these kids of hers anyway, child protective services should step in and take them all away and place them in homes where they can get adequate care and a loving home environment.
The vile octomom needs to be sterilized so she doesn't pump out any more babies.
It is v obvious to me that she is doing this for the money. All the children are obviously in potential danger in their current environment.
I myself am shunning her and not reading anything more about her or this situation. I will not waste any time reading any book she pens or has ghost written nor will I watch any stupid reality tv show if she is featured on one. I will not watch any bullshit tv interviews with her either, as what I did see was pathetic. It sickens me and makes me so sad for all those kids.
I am so sorry for her parents.
HOLY CRAP!!!!! This woman should be in a mental program and the dumb doctor that planted the eggs in her should be investigated! Wefare at it's best
It's shocking to see how scamming has evolved in society.
So, she can afford to go out and buy the expensive makeup, get manicures and so forth but she still needs donations? Ha! I hope her nails end up looking like mine! ;)
I wish the state had powers to take all the 14 kids into foster care or force her to give them up for a possible adoption to willing and capable parents. otherwise Nadya is sick
Anonymous on February 18 at 5:03 P.m. said: “One would think that a Psychology Major would be able to recognize her own insanity.”
That is an interesting observation for a couple of reasons.
Have you ever read anything about mass murder Edmund Kemper? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Kemper
His first murder was that of his grandparents at the age of 15. While doing time in the juvenile system, he befriended his psychologist and read up on how to fool a psychologist into believing he was no threat to society. He did five years for that double homicide, and went on to kill eight women.
Nadya Suleman no doubt always knew the right thing to say in each situation in order to fool whomever she was talking to. No doubt she was bright enough to read up on how badly her back “should” hurt and practice the signs and symptoms that allowed her to stay on temporary total disability.
When I was first injured, my eventual surgeon told me medical types are among the most difficult to assess because they know how to fake a positive physical exam.
I believe that Suleman practiced her responses and knew the right thing to say to every agency in order to milk the system to her benefit. While she hasn’t technically (from what I know) broken any laws (other than lying about where her student loan funds were going and also making up a baby daddy name), she’s been pushing it for some time. Her house of cards is about to collapse.
I wonder when we will learn who her plastic surgeon is and how she was able to slip that/those surgery in between pregnancies?
I appreciate your thoughts and research on this issue. However, I differ in the interpretation of the Kaiser hospital's motives. The Medi-Cal reimbursement rates are a money-loser for any hospital, so they were not in it for the money.
As for transferring her to a publicly funded hospital, there are laws against "dumping" that prevent hospitals from transferring out patients who are money losers.
Suleman is probably covered under the California AIM (access for infants and mothers) program if not straight Medi-Cal. As such, the hospital has a reasonable expectation of being reimbursed, just as would any facility that accepts Medi-Cal.
There is also no reason to believe that there would be any savings by using a "public" hospital -- the reimbursement rate is the same for everyone.
i bet you something even weirder with this story will come to light, like the fertility doctor is really the father of the octo children. we'll be hearing more of lies converted to truths in the months to come. she opened the door to all the probing which more than have the children demonstrates her inability to decipher reality - like who would go on national tv and not think all answers will not be investigated. a sign of true pathology like a criminal who things they can outsmart the police. sad
The really sad thing is that no one will want to take these kids in as foster children. Who wants to invite a lifelong media circus? They will end up in one fo the following: 1) institutionalized and hidden from view, 2) adopted outside the US, or 3) ostracized for as long as anyone cares to cover them.
The best scenario is if media outlets decide to stop covering this family at some point.
I feel sorry for the parents to a degree, because they're losing everything for a daughter who amounts to pretty much nothing.
Tough love in reverse? This girl is very immature, reminds me of the pre-teens who say "I hate my parents, and I want a baby so someone will love me." If you hate your parents, why would you have kids who will grow up and say "I hate you" in return. It's an unending cycle.
This is a legal quagmire in the short term, and a societal case study in the long term.
Dr. Phil claims officials at Kaiser Hospital told Nadya they were concerned about the babies living at her home in suburban Los Angeles. "What she is telling me is that unless and until she has a better living arrangement, that they are not likely to release the children to her," Good for Kaiser! By now, Nadya's time may have ran out with "Angels In Waiting." Offer may be null and void. Oprah Show aired and it sure seems like Doud Sulemen knows more than he is telling. He was way too cagey about who the daddy is! No sense in trying to make sense out of nonsense. Feasible suspect is MARCOS. Anyone ever wonder why Marcos Gutierrez’s sperm was not used? After all she was married to Marcos from 1996 to 2008. Marcos and Nadya were divorced in 2008, had no children the degree claims. Now, Nadya’s Dad tells Oprah that he has seen the father of Nadya’s children only once when he came to their house. I think the Suleman clan is covering up what is yet to be discovered. Common sense says that Nadya could have had IVFs with Marcos. Why didn’t she? Or did she? She seems emphatic that Denis Beudion is not the father and claims to know who the father is. Does Dr. Kamarava know? MARCOS may be the father of 14 children. Maybe the investigation going on with him will give us some tell-tale.
Latest news> Nadya offered million dollar porno contract. Humongous stretch-marks and flabby pizza dough don't have much appeal. Don't
think it's her cup of tea. Her cup of tea is a cup of male sperm, says
she got cups of sperm from several men. At least? Maybe, maybe not. Her tales don't gel too well!
This is absolutely unbelievable.
1. Why isn't someone reporting her to the Financial Aid office at the college. There has to be a law of some kind regarding her misusing grant money.
2. Worker's comp needs to investigate her also. No one could carry that many children if they had a legitimate back injury. She probably filed a fraudulent claim.
3. Child Protective Services needs to look into this also. She should be brought up on child endangerment charges. She claims to love her children, if that were true then how could she in all good conscience bring more children into the world knowing she already had 3 with certain disabilities. Having multiple births could result in more disable children. I do not know what the statistics are on children of multiple births having problems but I am sure it is quite possible. She knew exactly what she was doing when she had those embryos implanted. No matter how much you love children no sane mother would have so many children, especially when 3 are already disabled.
4. Why on earth would anyone offer such a person a book deal when there is really not a good story here that anyone would buy. It is clearly about a woman who is trying to bilk the people any way she can. All monies from any interviews should be used to pay back student loans and the disability she collected for herself.
5. As far as those death threats are concerned (if there are any that are legitimate) she is trying to garner sympathy.
She needs to quit going to school to be a Psychologist, I certainly do not know of anyone who would visit her for any type of help when she obviously cannot help herself. She seems to be depending on government help or help from some kind people.
NO,... the children should not have to suffer for her unstable mentality. They should be given up for adoption to families that can take care of them without the help of the government.
Anyone giving anything to the family is in essence sending her the message that what she has done is O.K. It is not. If these companies want to help someone then help people who are homeless and have children that need baby food and diapers. She is getting enough in pyublic aid to take care of her children, if she spends the money properly and not on herself. She has received enough money from disability to help her mother meet the mortgage on their home, yet it seems the mortgage has not been paid....WHY????
She claims to have a passion for having children and that she loves them so much, well 6 should have been enough since she does not have the resources to properly take care of them. She also claims to have wanted just one more child, really what a crock. For one child you would not implant yourself with 6 embryos. WHY WEREN'T THE 6 SHE ALREADY HAD ENOUGH FOR HER??
On Dr. Phil he asked her about having a plan in place to take care of all these children. She said they were working on it, then she said that she thought she was only going to have 7, and that having 8 threw her off....come on give me a break if you really had a plan in place for the 7 then one more would not have disrupted it that much.
Sorry Dr. Phil but I don't think you should be offering her any help at all. I am surprised that you would even consider making her any offer at all. Yes, the children need help and that help should come in the form of these children being taken out of the home and put up for adoption.
She completely needs to have a helath plan in place. She supposedly has a bad back I do not see that considering that on the news reports she is seen lifting her older children, and of course we saw the size of her during this pregnancy, that to me does not look like a person with a back injury. She seems to be very good at BSing people.
Perhaps everyone will have a comment in regard to the lady with 14 kids and maybe many will feel entitled to post due to feeling tax dollars are going towards the woman and her children. Let me just ask this how many men have littered this nation with sperm and not taken responsablity to help raise the child, in away is this not similar. I have two children of my own, given to me by a doctor's sperm donation and he has never paid the bills for his children, these children and others wind up on the public dole. So if every man who has ever produced a child is actually responsible and helps to support that child then we would have none of this type of thing going on however, we have an entire section of children in the poor of society that are supported by tax payer dollars. We can't track down all these males and even if we did they still do not pay.
I agree with most of the things in your column. The only thing I can dispute is that I work in labor and delivery in Arizona. Current laws prohibit transfering a patient to a lower level of care. Kaiser probably couldn't transfer her to a county hospital because she had an extremely high risk pregnancy (by her own choice).
i just want to know who died and left all u negetive people in charge?leave this girl alone and go after the doctor and the system that allowed this to happen!the doctor should be held responsible in some financial way!i cant even believe that people can be sooo mean and unkind .saying the children should be taken and all put up for adoption?that doesnt even sound like something a person in thier "right mind" should think.you should all put your energieas into changing the laws instead of bashing a mother who has enough on her plate right now.
What are we complaining about? Surely everyone here must admit how clever that octomom is. She is bad for the society, we all agree, but the system that set out to help people are at fall as well. Don't you all realize which state the octomom is milking money from. It's California, baby! I'm pretty sure that all (if not most) lawmaker in the Sacramental afraid to voice any negative opinion about the situation and issue any solution for the future incident like this to be repeated. Try to save our budget, my foot! The lawmaker will likely tax the Californian to cover the octomom medical bill as well as many other luxury she might enjoy. To me, the law only punish those who abide to it in this state of USA.
I agree with all who say this woman is crazy byt not just crazy...certifiable. It's a shame that we as taxpayers will continue to be burdened by her selfish choices. Let me just say that as a 40-something married professional I have been through the whole infertility circus at a cost out of pocket of $1,000 for each of 2 IUI's and then finally $16,000 with a five year loan at 11% interest and guess what no children. What gives this woman the right to feel that she is entitled to 14 children that she can't support. They would be better off adopted by someone who would feel blessed to just have 1.
This "mother" is by far the most selfish person that I have ever heard of! In fact, I can't think of one good thing to say about her. Anyone who gives her kudos for milking the system is insane! And, oh, poor woman for having a work related injury! That is total BS. She hurt her back and somehow managed to carry around that monstrosity of a belly which she proudly shows in photographs. Hmm...seems a little bit fishy. I could rant and rave all day long about this most angering situation. Something needs to be done to prevent these sorts of things from happening. I am sure there are those out there that eat up her sob story, but as far as I am concerned, she does not deserve anything. She needs to get her butr out there and support herself. I feel bad for those poor children to have been born into such a disfunctional family. We will probably be paying for their mental health issues somewhere in the near future. Yippee!!
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